A Quick Defense of Frank Martin

[picknroll]

There aren't many people who ever played sports on any level over elementary school who haven't been cussed out upside down by a coach. One of Mike Krzyzewski's former players has said that after his first year at Duke he thought his name was M^%THER F#@CKER. And drill seargents at basic training aren't known as the most polite bosses on earth either.

Frank Martin is a tough man and a tough coach. His track record speaks for itself, too. He's been one of the most highly successful men in coaching at every level he's tried. He does that by teaching and physically training athletes in practice, setting exceedingly high standards of performance expectation, and holding the players to it. Yes, he is very tough on his players but the guys he recruits respect him and know that he is getting them to perform better than they themselves even think they are capable of performing. Yes, they get yelled at, but we don't see what goes on day to day behind the scenes. The players to a man are always talking about how much Frank cares for them and looks out for them. 

I think this suspension is undue interference by Ray Tanner and cuts the legs right out from under Martin's ability to control his players and recruit new ones. It seems to me that we should just offer to buy out Frank's contract and ask for his resignation because Martin's not going to be able to do anything from now on due to the black cloud Tanner put over him. Tanner's just loaded up our competitors with all the ammo they need to recruit against Martin. 

All I can say is, Martin is one of the most excellent coaches in the country and we were lucky to get him. He had this program going in the right direction until this happened. I absolutely love his tough coaching style and we were establishing a reputation as a tough team molded in his likeness. I hope he's not crippled by this. I never thought Ray Tanner would throw a coach under the bus. I never thought he would be for the pussification of Gamecock Athletics, but I guess I was wrong. We haven't had such a stupid move by an Athletics Director since King Dixon, and that's saying something because Hyman was a pretty high bar of stupidity to beat. Thanks Ray. DUHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[ShepCock]

I think this suspension is undue interference by Ray Tanner and cuts the legs right out from under Martin's ability to control his players and recruit new ones. It seems to me that we should just offer to buy out Frank's contract and ask for his resignation because Martin's not going to be able to do anything from now on due to the black cloud Tanner put over him. Tanner's just loaded up our competitors with all the ammo they need to recruit against Martin. 

You had me until here.  It's one thing to use profanity.  It's another thing to do it in front of an ESPN camera. He should have known better. Given the public nature of this, Ray Tanner had no choice but to suspend him.  Don't jump on Ray, because all he did was his job.

So now we're never going to get a good player again because Frank got suspended for a game?  Talk about your message board melodrama.  The same ammo that people used against Frank yesterday is the same ammo they will use today and in the future.  Nothing has changed in that area.  What he needs to do to improve recruiting is start winning more games than he loses.  Kentucky was a good start and I know that the program is about to turn the corner.

 

[Superb Owl]

Isn't Martin notorious for this?  Should we go ahead and pack his bags since the last time Martin had a run in with an AD he left?

 

[ShepCock]

Isn't Martin notorious for this?  Should we go ahead and pack his bags since the last time Martin had a run in with an AD he left?

Martin is notorious for this, and we knew what we were getting when we hired him. I am in favor of sticking with Martin, but I will say that if he gets mad and leaves Carolina after 2 years on the job, he'll never coach college basketball again because no one will trust him.

 

[picknroll]

So, Shep, do you think Krzyzewski or Pitino or Donovan wait until the camera is turned off before they yell at their players? Why would we single out OUR coach for doing what coaches do regularly day in and day out? My daughter graduated from the US Naval Academy and for over 150 years we've been training top military leaders and soldiers on the ground the same way. This is stupid. We're cutting the legs out from under the coach and making it harder for him to enforce his discipline on the team. It's that severe enforcement at even the site of small mistakes that makes players play at a higher level than they can do by themselves.

 

[ShepCock]

First some facts (the rest of this post), then we'll follow with some opinions. And for the record picknroll I think we're going the whole 15 rounds on this one.

'Inappropriate verbal communication': Outburst gets Frank Martin suspended

USC benches coach 1 game for profane tirade at player in Florida game

March 6, 2014 BY DAVID CLONINGER - The State

South Carolina basketball coach Frank Martin was suspended for Saturday’s regular-season finale at Mississippi State by athletics director Ray Tanner on Thursday, following a verbal altercation with a player during Tuesday’s 72-46 loss to Florida.

It is the second time this season that Martin’s sideline behavior has been called into question.

“The one-game suspension is a result of inappropriate verbal communication as it relates to the well-being of our student-athletes,” Tanner said in a statement. Tanner did not return phone messages on Thursday.

With about 10 minutes remaining in Tuesday’s game, cameras caught Martin screaming at freshman point guard Duane Notice. Martin directed a profane outburst at Notice during a timeout.

A video clip of the moment went viral and some USC fans complained to the athletics department.

A USC season ticket-holder who did not wish to be identified said he called Tanner to address Martin’s behavior, and it wasn’t the first time he had done so. The supporter, whose son played major college basketball, has not been pleased with Martin’s sideline demeanor since he was hired.

“I’m sitting with a real heavy booster who has a box, and I buy season tickets, and it hit me – why do we have to put up with this?” the ticket-holder said. “When you start screaming at a kid, you completely cease to communicate with him. It makes the university look bad.”

The ticket-holder also mentioned that several other fans and boosters who had the same opinion also let Tanner know of their displeasure.

Martin brought a reputation for animated behavior and harsh language on the sideline with him from Kansas State.

Tanner has publicly praised Martin and has asked fans to be patient with the program, which has only had three winning SEC seasons in 23 years. Martin has likewise said that he likes working under Tanner, who took the AD job shortly after Eric Hyman hired Martin. Hyman left USC for the AD job at Texas A&M.

At Kansas State, a rift with athletics director John Currie was thought to be a reason why Martin left. Currie, like Tanner, was hired when Martin was already in place. Currie and Martin have each denied they had a problem with each other.

Martin apologized for another outburst he had on Jan. 18. During a 75-74 loss to Ole Miss, Martin also was caught on camera cursing at senior guard Brenton Williams.

“I got after (Williams) pretty darned good on the sideline in the first half, and I visited with him about it and apologized to him,” Martin said on Jan. 21. “And I do want to apologize to any fans that were behind the bench that maybe heard what was said. I was wrong for that, and there’s no excuse for it.”

Martin also said that there was no place for himself or any other coach to speak to an athlete the way he did to Williams. Williams took over the team’s scoring lead soon after and has scored in double figures in 11 of the 13 games since.

Many of Martin’s players have spoken of their coach’s fiery demeanor and lauded him for it. Freshman Sindarius Thornwell, a national Top 50 recruit, said that he signed with the Gamecocks because he wanted his coach to challenge him.

Associate head coach Matt Figger will serve as acting head coach in the game against Mississippi State. The Gamecocks must win to avoid finishing last in the SEC. Martin will not travel with the team.

Martin did not participate in his scheduled call-in radio show on Thursday night. Assistant coach Perry Clark filled in. Martin’s suspension was addressed during the broadcast but Clark did not comment further on it and calls on the topic were not allowed.

“All parties have nothing more to add at this time,” host Andy Demetra said. One caller did express well-wishes to Martin and hoped he was listening.

 

[ShepCock]

Now let’s talk about the highlighted quotes one at a time, and then I’ll respond to your post following this one.

1) “It is the second time this season that Martin’s sideline behavior has been called into question.”

This is an important distinction.  It has happened before.  It is NOT the result of some random emotional reaction (like the profanity itself is) and it not the behavior of a reckless AD determined to have his way.  It IS THE RESULT of progressive discipline being applied at a State university.  I have worked for the State for a number of years and have been trained as a supervisor.  We were taught to document everything with regard to an employee’s actions.  The judgment is fair and impartial.  Even Martin himself has said he was wrong the first time: “Martin also said that there was no place for himself or any other coach to speak to an athlete the way he did to Williams.”

2) “The one-game suspension is a result of inappropriate verbal communication as it relates to the well-being of our student-athletes”

Again, this is a policy citation in the athletic department.  It would not surprise me if Frank Martin signed something to this regard when he was hired here.

3) “A video clip of the moment went viral and some USC fans complained to the athletics department.”

In spite of the above, I believe that this is the real trigger that got the ball rolling on this.  The public nature of the incident, combined with big donors complaints (the article cites a donor sitting behind the bench – to get those kinds of seats means he paid a lot to the athletic department, and therefore his voice matters a little bit more).  Therefore, Ray Tanner had to act.  He had no choice really.

 

[ShepCock]

Now let me address your post one line at a time:

Shep, do you think Krzyzewski or Pitino or Donovan wait until the camera is turned off before they yell at their players? Why would we single out OUR coach for doing what coaches do regularly day in and day out?

What other coaches at other schools do is not what Frank Martin did.  I have been told that Coach K cusses like a sailor, and I believe that’s true.  One thing you will notice though is that Coach K never puts himself in a position to get his lips read.  He always has a tight huddle and seems to me to be aware of where the cameras are.

The other issue here is the status that these coaches have at their particular school with relationship to the AD.  Pitino is a multi-championship coach, and Louisville basketball is widely regarded as their best sport.  Same with Coach K.  In Florida, it’s a bit less pronounced, but basketball has won 2 National Championships in the last decade.  That sport is “king” at these schools, and these men have considerable influence.

The exact opposite is true at South Carolina.  Football and baseball share a very large spotlight here, and women’s hoops is starting to join that spotlight as well.  In fact, baseball has won 2 NC’s as well, and Martin’s boss is the guy who won those.  The point being is that the basketball coach has a lot less “pull” then the others that you mentioned, and so it is much easier to make a disciplinary move.  How Martin responds to this second action remains to be seen.

My daughter graduated from the US Naval Academy and for over 150 years we've been training top military leaders and soldiers on the ground the same way.

If the training of soldiers in this manner went viral, and you had prominent Navy people complaining to the top brass at the Naval Academy, you might see some similar changes taking place.  I think you and I both know that doesn’t happen however, and IMO the two situations are apples and oranges different.

This is stupid. We're cutting the legs out from under the coach and making it harder for him to enforce his discipline on the team.

Time will tell whether it’s stupid or not.  But if all eyes are on Martin, and Martin publicly uses profanity to degrade a player, it is very easy to argue that is inappropriate.  One of my favorite movies regarding the Navy is “A Few Good Men”.  In it, I think that Col. Jesup actually had a good point about handling it “within the unit”.  But if you’re going to be a disciplinarian and want to employ “Code Red” strategy, you do it away from the cameras, not in front of them.  If he got in Notice’s face in practice and said those things, I don’t see how anyone could have a problem with it given that we knew what we were getting when we hired Martin. That is the difference here.

It's that severe enforcement at even the sight of small mistakes that makes players play at a higher level than they can do by themselves.

The article even says that the players laud the discipline and that Williams has been the in double digits in scoring 11 of the 13 games since the incident.  I want to be clear – I loved Coach Bob Knight and the way in which he ran Indiana basketball.  Martin reminds me a lot of him and I think his style is a good one.  And running a disciplined program is always a good thing.  But what Frank Martin did was put his boss in a very uncomfortable spot by going public with his expression of rage.  Anger is a powerful motivator, but it has to be administered in the proper context. That I think is the lesson to be learned here.

 

[Superb Owl]

I have nothing other to add besides:  "If Horn had some fire to him and said the things Martin says.. would he have gotten a suspension?"

 

[ShepCock]

I have nothing other to add besides:  "If Horn had some fire to him and said the things Martin says.. would he have gotten a suspension?"

Probably.  I don't think Hyman tolerated this kind of rhetoric any more than Ray Tanner did either.

Look, Frank Martin is no gentleman coach and we knew that when we hired him. To be any good, a team with average talent has to play with a chip on their shoulder - that is probably what Frank is trying to accomplish - make them play a little angry. Make no mistake….whatever he did worked well at K-State. That's kinda why we hired him.

 
But I also agree with the action taken by Tanner. Cussing and berating is one thing. A direct obscene public insult of a player is something else indeed.
 
And the thing you have to remember is that this has been posted all over the Internet. He called a player a f**ing ***hole loud enough to be heard on national TV and to a thousand fans in the arena. It is TOTALLY unacceptable for a coach to say to a player. 
 
BTW, I'm sure Duane Notice is over it. This isn't a man-up thing or a political correctness issue.
 
It’s a keep it in the practice court/locker room and behave professionally while representing the University of South Carolina issue.

 

[picknroll]

Shep, I stand by every word I said. If it ain't good to curse at players during the game it shouldn't be acceptable any other time, but after not saying anything for 2 years Tanner decides to get moralistic because it happens in front of a tv camera? This ranks right up with the stupidest decisions ever made by one of our Athletics Directors. Shockingly stupid to listen and yield to whiney fans and undermine one of your coaches. And there have been many occasions where you could see what Coach K and many other coaches were saying so don't go there...don't even try. My faith in Tanner's judgement and management ability is GONE.

This is a cataclysmic gargantuan mistake. Martin is in no position to stand up for himself because if he left he would lose millions of dollars, but trust me - he knows he's been humiliated and his authority and prestige undercut. AND he and anyone else with a brain knows it will be used against him in recruiting - a LOT. Here come the "will he be here" questions undermining the credibility of whatever Martin tells recruits from now on. So now we're paying megabucks for a coach who has been neutered by our own hand. Same thing we went through with Horn. Idiots. Keep preaching Shep.

 

[ShepCock]

Martin is in no position to stand up for himself because if he left he would lose millions of dollars, but trust me - he knows he's been humiliated and his authority and prestige undercut.

ACTUALLY.....we'll find out exactly what Frank Martin has to say during a 2:45 pm. presser today.  Should be interesting.

 

[picknroll]

He can't say what he really thinks at the presser so I won't take much stock in it.

 

[doubledribble]

Shep, I stand by every word I said. If it ain't good to curse at players during the game it shouldn't be acceptable any other time, but after not saying anything for 2 years Tanner decides to get moralistic because it happens in front of a tv camera? This ranks right up with the stupidest decisions ever made by one of our Athletics Directors. Shockingly stupid to listen and yield to whiney fans and undermine one of your coaches. And there have been many occasions where you could see what Coach K and many other coaches were saying so don't go there...don't even try. My faith in Tanner's judgement and management ability is GONE.

This is a cataclysmic gargantuan mistake. Martin is in no position to stand up for himself because if he left he would lose millions of dollars, but trust me - he knows he's been humiliated and his authority and prestige undercut. AND he and anyone else with a brain knows it will be used against him in recruiting - a LOT. Here come the "will he be here" questions undermining the credibility of whatever Martin tells recruits from now on. So now we're paying megabucks for a coach who has been neutered by our own hand. Same thing we went through with Horn. Idiots. Keep preaching Shep.

Exactly. Not only this, but when you take into account the fact that we fired Darrin Horn after 3 years (more like 2) with his own players (and after having the worst luck anyone could possibly have losing Archie and Holmes), and now some have gone public to admit they want Martin fired, this is undermining the program. No coach in their right mind would ever come here after that. What major coach do you want to hire? Marshall? He's not gonna come here! We'd have to pay him 2 times what we pay frank, and even then he wouldn't be around long enough because he would have to start all the way over from scratch just like Horn and Martin had to do. Our program will be in the cellar for decades. They might as well just shut it down now to save some cash because Tanner had to listen to a few boosters. 

 

[ShepCock]

after not saying anything for 2 years Tanner decides to get moralistic because it happens in front of a TV camera? This ranks right up with the stupidest decisions ever made by one of our Athletics Directors.

Did you even read what I posted above?  Apparently not, because this question was answered already. How can Tanner defend stuff like this when Martin makes it impossible?  I'm sure this has been building for a while and clearly this is not the first time it has been addressed with him.

If you want to get technical about it, Martin's only problem is he's a little too demonstrative in his "talks" with his players. Apparently one of the reasons Gregg Marshall wasn't hired years ago was he and his wife's potty mouths at a game here when he was at Winthrop. I would never condone hitting a player but how a coach verbally communicates his message is up to him.

Has a SC coach ever been suspended for a game for yelling at a player? I sure don't remember this happening before. This is pretty bad actually, and I hope that Frank Martin will take some serious steps to mend his ways.  You can even start naming successful coaches in the history of modern sports, professional and college and tell me how many times has an incident like this occurred?

But despite that.....all coaches yell at players but very few would call a player and ahole on National TV. The thing about basketball is that the arena is very small, the cameras up close and the big donors have seats behind the bench.  Ray was backed into a corner on this one. And again it isn't the first time even this year either -- he was warned re: the incident with Brenton Williams.

 

[doubledribble]

Furthermore people like to say Frank Martin ran from Kansas State, but for all we know, he just wanted to have an AD that would let him run his program much like Eddie Fogler would have liked McGee to stay out of his business. He thought he had that here with Hyman, but Tanner has undermined that. This program's recruiting will suffer and it's a damn shame with the ground we'd made with Woods and Dozier.

 

[ShepCock]

And by the way, I GET what Martin is TRYING to do. Some of what he does is to bond the team. When he singles out a player like that, the other players rally to pick up that player. It inspires team play and unity. His on court demeanor is balanced with an off court mentoring. He is a winner, so I'm sure he will win here. I heard an interview with him about his frustration one day and he was talking about he and the players studying the upcoming opponent and the players "tendencies". Defensively, he was talking about how they work on making the opposition uncomfortable with what they are normally very comfortable doing.

 
Shortly after that interview was the Vandy game. Their guard, number 11, shook Notice and drove to his left for the easy lay in. Martin jumped off his chair with that crazed stare and yelled at Notice, "he goes left!, he goes LEFT!!" That guy consistently did not even try to go to his right. He went that way when forced but never shot or drove moving to his right. I am sure that when Frank discusses this in film study and explains how to defend a player in practice and how to make him uncomfortable and then his player allows his man to do what's comfortable and move in the direction that he's strong, its frustrating. I'm sure he made a point. Notice defended that guy very well from that point on.
 
Martin has repeatedly said that talent isn't his concern. His issue is that he tells the guys to do one thing and they repeatedly do something else. Now, unless you're going to assert that they're mentally deficient, that is something worth yelling at them over. All he has ever asked of his team is to play hard and do what they're told. The message, apparently, hasn't gotten through.
 

 

[ShepCock]

Exactly. Not only this, but when you take into account the fact that we fired Darrin Horn after 3 years (more like 2) with his own players (and after having the worst luck anyone could possibly have losing Archie and Holmes). 

That wasn't what got Horn fired in 4.  The fact that he was a substandard SEC coach is what got him fired.  He should have never been hired in the first place.

Because with each passing loss it becomes increasingly more apparent how badly Darrin Horn sucked as a head coach here.
 
EVERYONE knows Martin is one helluva coach, but I don't even think HE saw the magnitude of the depth of the hole that Horn had dug us into.
 
That's enough to frustrate anyone, and so on some level, I actually have sympathy for Coach Martin.

 

[doubledribble]

Did you even read what I posted above?  Apparently not, because this question was answered already. How can Tanner defend stuff like this when Martin makes it impossible?  I'm sure this has been building for a while and clearly this is not the first time it has been addressed with him.

If you want to get technical about it, Martin's only problem is he's a little too demonstrative in his "talks" with his players. Apparently one of the reasons Gregg Marshall wasn't hired years ago was he and his wife's potty mouths at a game here when he was at Winthrop. I would never condone hitting a player but how a coach verbally communicates his message is up to him.

Has a SC coach ever been suspended for a game for yelling at a player? I sure don't remember this happening before. This is pretty bad actually, and I hope that Frank Martin will take some serious steps to mend his ways.  You can even start naming successful coaches in the history of modern sports, professional and college and tell me how many times has an incident like this occurred?

But despite that.....all coaches yell at players but very few would call a player and ahole on National TV. The thing about basketball is that the arena is very small, the cameras up close and the big donors have seats behind the bench.  Ray was backed into a corner on this one. And again it isn't the first time even this year either -- he was warned re: the incident with Brenton Williams.

This wouldn't even be discussed if the men's basketball team were winning. Who in their right mind would suspend Coach K, but that doesn't prevent the truth coming out about him. Bob Huggins is notorious for doing the same thing. Coach Cal does it also. What's different about those guys? They are winning right now. ESPN announcers said Cal should be reprimanded for yelling at players during the USC-Kentucky game last week, but that didn't happen did it? Why? BECAUSE HE'S A LEGENDARY COACH AND KENTUCKY IS SMART ENOUGH NOT TO COMPROMISE WHAT MAKES HIM SUCCESSFUL.