Should Coach Martin's Seat Be Warm?

[Cack]

Let me start off by saying, I love Coach Martin. I love his coaching style. I love his fire. I love his passion. I love that he won't hesitate to get in somebody's ass when it's needed. However, are we seeing the improvements we expect to see, or should be seeing at this point of his tenure at SC? 

Coach Martin started at South Carolina in 2012 

14-18  4-14  T12th

14-20  5-13  13th

17-16  6-12  T11th

25-9  11-7  T3rd (NIT)

26-11  12-6  T3rd (NCAA bid)

17-16  7-11  T11th

16-16  11-7  T4th

Overall 129-106 .549 Conf 56-70 .444

Looking at just the numbers I see a few things. The most success the program saw was Sindarius Thornwell's Junior and Senior seasons when he just went off. When he left, the program took a major hit. Of course, Dozier left and I don't think a lot saw that coming, but at the same time he wasn't exactly tearing it up (outside of the NCAA tourney). I also see this program struggling when it comes time for Conference play. Now, are we finding a way over that hump? This season was actually the exact opposite. We struggled mightily out of conference, but then turned it up when conference play began, or did Silva just show out in a couple of games to take us to another level at times?

Now, if you want to take a look at the top teams in the conference to see when things took off for them. Rick Barnes took over for Tennessee in 2015 and Bruce Pearl took over at Auburn in 2015. 

Tennessee since 2012                                               Auburn since 2012

19-13  11-7  T5th (NIT)                                             9-23  3-15  14th

24-13  11-7  4th (NCAA bid)                                      14-16  6-12  12th

16-16  7-11  10th                                                     15-20  4-14  13th (Bruce Pearl's first season)

15-19  6-12  12th (Rick Barnes' first season)               11-20  5-13  13th

16-16  8-10  T9th                                                    18-14  7-11 11th

26-9  13-5  T1st (NCAA bid)                                     26-8  13-5  T1st (NCAA bid)

29-5  15-3  T2nd (NCAA bid)                                    26-9  11-7  T4th (NCAA bid)

In 4 or fewer seasons, Bruce Pearl and Rick Barnes have taken their programs from the same levels, if not lower, than ours, and have been at the tops of the conference and in the dance in back to back seasons. 

At what point do we starting asking more from Coach Martin? At what point is one magical run just not good enough? We're playing in the SEC in Basketball. It's not the same as it is in Football or Baseball. At this stage in his tenure, we should not be finishing any lower than middle of the conference, at a bare minimum. Why aren't we further along by now? There were some injuries this season, but we were full strength early in the season when we were dropping games we shouldn't have. Games that kept us out of any post season play. Has Coach Martin just been snake bitten with injuries and/or unforeseen departures that have held us back? 

Personally, I'm at the point of "put up or shut up." Coach Martin sat in front of the microphone before the SEC Tournament and preached about why we deserve to be in the dance and it would be an absolute rip off and something would be fishy if we didn't make it in. The team responded by going out and just looking ugly in a loss. You can't tell everybody how good you are and how much you deserve to be there, and then have a game like that.

Losing Chris Silva is going to be a major blow to this program next season. I think we have some talent in the program with Lawson, Bryant, Haase, Minaya, and Frink. We have some talent in this young guys, but every single one of them have work to do to get better before next season. A lot of consistency issues for every one of them. Lawson is probably the most polished. Bryant by far has the most upside, but needs to find a jump shot to be able to incorporate a head fake to his game. 

Do we accept .500 records and a post season birth every now and then? 

 

[FeatheredCock]

No cannot accept .500 records he is a top 25 Salary coach. Right now you take out the final 4 for the money the university is paying him he would be gone if not for that.  Question is who could get the job done here? Need a coach who can get the top in-state talent to sign on the dotted line. Really this has killed this program. Seems to be very very hard for this staff to take advantage of the Gamecocks final four run. Gamecock staff failed to capitalize on the opportunity. If anything, it seems the program is going in the wrong direction. The question now should he get another year or two? If not the who can the school land that would be able in your opinion to get the job done?

 

[Cack]

My 2 options are ... he's out the door now and you hand the key to the bank vault to Greg Marshall, OR you give him one more year to see if this young talent can grown, and if not, he's out the door and you hand the key to the bank vault to Greg Marshall. 

 

[Longhaul]

I am in the one more year camp just because of the injury situation this year, but the seat should definitely be warm in my opinion.  He looks to have a good clas coming in this year and I hope things will pan out for him because I think he is a good X's and O's guy and really does genuinely care about these kids.  I was in the Greg Marshall camp before Frank was hired, but there is just something about him that I don't really care for now that he's had some success.  Don't want to get into bashing the guy so I will just leave it at that, but the guy does win.  I find it interesting that larger schools have not come calling for him or maybe they have, I don't follow it that closely. 

 

[Cockyandproud]

Gregg Marshall would have come here several years ago, but probably not now.  This is the only thing that I have any "insider" knowledge about.  My cousin and Marshall are very close friends, and they grew up in Greenwood together.  They still get together, and my cousin has been out to his house in Wichita, and asked him about coming here.  He has said it's not completely out of the question, but it is not very likely or probable.  He is top dog there, and doesn't have to compete with football.  He wanted the job very much, in fact, he called it his dream job back then. He did get a call about being the coach, but the administration hired Horn instead.  Since then, he has moved on.

 

[Cockyandproud]

To get back to the original post, I think he should be on the hot seat, but I doubt it.  I find it discouraging that a Final Four appearance got pissed away.

 

[GMB2USC23]

I'm all in for Coach Martin, I think Coach's greatest attribute also leads to some cringe worthy moments as he is straight up and speaks his mind. Coach Martin builds relationships, his passion can be over bearing at times, players that graduate under Coach Martin will always be a part of a Coach Martin program. Coach Martin is a very respected coach in both high school and college coaching ranks, players that stick with Coach Martin become better as he has an eye for talent. I think that he will produce success and runs like the final four while he also needs to continue to work on his over bearing passion at times that produce cringe worthy moments. 

We get caught up talking numbers that can show Coach Martin as our most successful coach in his 7 years here but if you just look at the program being built, the foundation that has been laid, the relationships that have been built, the success that he has had and is possible under him we as Gamecock fans should be all in for Coach Martin and the young, extremely athletic and versatile team he has already started coaching for next year. I hope we all agree he will be our coach next year, give this team support and put no undue pressure or heat on the seat until after next year at the earliest because he is our coach until at least that point and deservedly so IMO

At the same time I think Coach Tanner needs to talk to Coach Martin concerning having fun, enjoying the moment in both wins and losses, selling yourself and the program at all times while still being straight up and speaking your mind. Coach Martin has a passion to win, the fans have a passion to win and it can become a volatile relationship that divides a fan base and a program ruining everything that has been built the last 7 years, ruin the run AJ Lawson, Bryant, Trae Hannibal, Minaya, Kotsar, Moss, Leveque, Couisnard, Frink, Haase, Anderson and Bolden could make before it starts.

 

[doublea1971]

This is one of those topics that kind of grinds my gears a bit.  First, I'll state forthrightly, like Cack, that I'm a big Coach Martin fan.  I think he teaches the game the right way AND he teaches these young men in our program the right way.  As noted above... one you're a Martin guy, you're generally speaking a Martin guy for life.  He doesn't just move on to the next batch of players, like so many do these days.  Second, I'd like to note that Cack compared the Tennessee program and the Auburn program to ours to show progress of programs.  I know this horse has been beaten to death in another forum, but those comparisons are simply unfair (and I'll again acknowledge my bias here... I don't think it's time to put Frank on the hot seat).  Both Auburn and Tennessee have had MAJOR success in their programs over the years.  The Gamecocks have not been a relevant basketball school since they left the ACC under the OTHER Frank.  Here's a quick look...

Auburn (from Wikipedia)... Auburn has won three SEC championships and two SEC Tournament championships. Auburn has appeared in the NCAA Tournament nine times, making it as far as the Elite Eight in 1986. 11 Auburn players have been named All-Americans and Auburn has had 87 All-SEC selections. Auburn has produced 29 NBA Draft picks, including Chuck Person and Chris Morris, both of whom were selected with the fourth overall pick, the highest in Auburn history. Two Auburn players have been named SEC Player of the Year: Charles Barkley in 1984 and Chris Porter in 1999. Auburn has had five head coaches selected as SEC Coach of the Year a total of seven times, and former Auburn head coach Cliff Ellis was named National Coach of the Year by multiple outlets in 1999.

I'm happy to list the same for Tennessee, but I'm sure we can all agree that Tennessee has the success, if not more, that Auburn has had.

Now, as to how that affects Coach Martin... Look at our conference records since he's taken over the program.  We ran Eddie Fogler, Dave Odom, and the one who shall remain nameless out of town because of losing SEC records year after year after year.  Coach Martin has done what?  Produced winning records in the SEC 3 out of 4 years since his 4th season in Columbia.  Here's Cack's numbers again, just so you can see it....

14-18  4-14  T12th

14-20  5-13  13th

17-16  6-12  T11th

25-9  11-7  T3rd (NIT)

26-11  12-6  T3rd (NCAA bid)

17-16  7-11  T11th

16-16  11-7  T4th

Of those 4 seasons past his first three seasons, he has placed in he top 5 of the conference in three of 4 years.  Where were we picked in most of those seasons by the "experts"?  No higher than 8th pre-season.  Given the talent he has recruited, and the way that the "experts" view that talent (with the exception of perhaps PJ Dozier), do we REALLY want to put Frank's job on the hot seat?  He's kept the Gamecocks in legit contention for the SEC and in legit contention for post-season play EVEN WITH serious rebuilding issues.  Think dismissing 2-3 players each season for several years.  Rah Felder's departure.  PJ Dozier leaving early.  Brian Bowen not qualifying.  Even losing 5 players this year to either injury, leaving the team, or not qualifying.  SERIOUSLY?  We're talking getting rid of a Head Coach who left us in 4th place or better even with all that stuff?

Maybe I'm missing something here.  And I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, so please feel free to give me the legitimate reasons why I'm wrong.  The way I see it, if I were Frank... I'd likely have given up after last year.  It seems the "Basketball Gods" are unkind to him/us.  And yet he keeps coming back, and he keeps competing with the best in the league.  And his teams don't just phone it in.  They give every effort AND get us into a 4th place finish with half a team.

Come on y'all... I mean it.  PLEASE convince me otherwise with legit reasons that Frank is not the man.  Is making the NCAAs every year really what is at issue here?  A team that has not made it past the first round with one exception in the last 30 years, and that one exception was under the current Coach?  Let's be rational.

OK... I'll shut up now and listen to what everyone ELSE has to say.  Thanks!

 

[GMB2USC23]

Lets look into the future a little or try, I think Lawson is a complete ball player with elite talent and size, he will continue to improve on a FR year that he averaged 13ppg, 4rpg and 3apg to go with a steal. Lawson will continue to improve on a season that rivals PJ Doziers SO year, IMO he should have been the SEC FR of the year but I'm admittedly bias.

Kotsar will be the only SR and should be playing with something to prove, he will get more looks and should have a great senior year with the young wings and guards opening the floor up for him. We add another tall shooting wing, a Downey like PG and a FR Silva like big in 2019, to go with Couisnard, Moss, Bolden and Minaya to replace Gravett, Silva and Campbell.

I look forward to watching the improvement of Bryant and Haase, they both have a ton of potential, if Haase can get a tad bit faster/quicker, a few back to the basket moves to go with his shot consistently could make us great. Bryant put on 10-15lbs of muscle to go with a solid jumper or consistent catch and shoot, better pick and roll skills, better or consistent decision making would make him special and us great.

Minaya and the sharp shooting Anderson should make our first 5 wings with Couisnard, Lawson and Bryant a tough match up for anyone in the country on both the offensive and defensive ends of the court, their size and ability to assist the smaller guards handle pressure and pass the ball out of it will tell us a ton about how next season will go, knowing when to attack the pressure as well as to apply pressure on the defensive end to make offense will fall on Hannibal, Moss and Bolden. Those 8 players give us the ability to run, run and run with anyone and Cudd, Kotsar, Haase, Leveque and Frink give us bigs to rebound and run with them or slow it down when needed, set picks and bang inside. 

I hope Coach Martin can keep this team together and have these pieces for an entire year, here is to a healthy and successful 2019 for the Gamecock basketball program! 

 

[doublea1971]

I will add this to my previous post above... If the University of South Carolina DOES decide to cut ties with Coach Martin any time in the next couple of years (and I am NOT advocating we do so), we need to make a serious push for a coach like Steve Wojeiechowski.  Someone who is a known name, someone with some amount of coaching pedigree, and some amount of success.  Wojo has a salary that is roughly equivalent to Coach Martin's right now, so we can certainly afford him.  Given his history in this part of the US, he certainly could recruit here.  Plus he's pulling some solid players from one of Coach Martin's current recruiting beds - Canada.  

 

[Senior Rooster]

My 2 options are ... he's out the door now and you hand the key to the bank vault to Greg Marshall, OR you give him one more year to see if this young talent can grown, and if not, he's out the door and you hand the key to the bank vault to Greg Marshall. 

I believe that works for me!

 

[Senior Rooster]

I will add this to my previous post above... If the University of South Carolina DOES decide to cut ties with Coach Martin any time in the next couple of years (and I am NOT advocating we do so), we need to make a serious push for a coach like Steve Wojeiechowski.  Someone who is a known name, someone with some amount of coaching pedigree, and some amount of success.  Wojo has a salary that is roughly equivalent to Coach Martin's right now, so we can certainly afford him.  Given his history in this part of the US, he certainly could recruit here.  Plus he's pulling some solid players from one of Coach Martin's current recruiting beds - Canada.  

ON TARGET!!!   FIRE FOR EFFECT!!!

 

[Senior Rooster]

Let me start off by saying, I love Coach Martin. I love his coaching style. I love his fire. I love his passion. I love that he won't hesitate to get in somebody's ass when it's needed. However, are we seeing the improvements we expect to see, or should be seeing at this point of his tenure at SC? 

Coach Martin started at South Carolina in 2012 

14-18  4-14  T12th

14-20  5-13  13th

17-16  6-12  T11th

25-9  11-7  T3rd (NIT)

26-11  12-6  T3rd (NCAA bid)

17-16  7-11  T11th

16-16  11-7  T4th

Overall 129-106 .549 Conf 56-70 .444

Looking at just the numbers I see a few things. The most success the program saw was Sindarius Thornwell's Junior and Senior seasons when he just went off. When he left, the program took a major hit. Of course, Dozier left and I don't think a lot saw that coming, but at the same time he wasn't exactly tearing it up (outside of the NCAA tourney). I also see this program struggling when it comes time for Conference play. Now, are we finding a way over that hump? This season was actually the exact opposite. We struggled mightily out of conference, but then turned it up when conference play began, or did Silva just show out in a couple of games to take us to another level at times?

Now, if you want to take a look at the top teams in the conference to see when things took off for them. Rick Barnes took over for Tennessee in 2015 and Bruce Pearl took over at Auburn in 2015. 

Tennessee since 2012                                               Auburn since 2012

19-13  11-7  T5th (NIT)                                             9-23  3-15  14th

24-13  11-7  4th (NCAA bid)                                      14-16  6-12  12th

16-16  7-11  10th                                                     15-20  4-14  13th (Bruce Pearl's first season)

15-19  6-12  12th (Rick Barnes' first season)               11-20  5-13  13th

16-16  8-10  T9th                                                    18-14  7-11 11th

26-9  13-5  T1st (NCAA bid)                                     26-8  13-5  T1st (NCAA bid)

29-5  15-3  T2nd (NCAA bid)                                    26-9  11-7  T4th (NCAA bid)

In 4 or fewer seasons, Bruce Pearl and Rick Barnes have taken their programs from the same levels, if not lower, than ours, and have been at the tops of the conference and in the dance in back to back seasons. 

At what point do we starting asking more from Coach Martin? At what point is one magical run just not good enough? We're playing in the SEC in Basketball. It's not the same as it is in Football or Baseball. At this stage in his tenure, we should not be finishing any lower than middle of the conference, at a bare minimum. Why aren't we further along by now? There were some injuries this season, but we were full strength early in the season when we were dropping games we shouldn't have. Games that kept us out of any post season play. Has Coach Martin just been snake bitten with injuries and/or unforeseen departures that have held us back? 

Personally, I'm at the point of "put up or shut up." Coach Martin sat in front of the microphone before the SEC Tournament and preached about why we deserve to be in the dance and it would be an absolute rip off and something would be fishy if we didn't make it in. The team responded by going out and just looking ugly in a loss. You can't tell everybody how good you are and how much you deserve to be there, and then have a game like that.

Losing Chris Silva is going to be a major blow to this program next season. I think we have some talent in the program with Lawson, Bryant, Haase, Minaya, and Frink. We have some talent in this young guys, but every single one of them have work to do to get better before next season. A lot of consistency issues for every one of them. Lawson is probably the most polished. Bryant by far has the most upside, but needs to find a jump shot to be able to incorporate a head fake to his game. 

Do we accept .500 records and a post season birth every now and then? 

Fantastic Post Cack!!! More please.

What do you think now, after our latest additions?