I believe he is trying to refer to OSU head coach and former Gamecock player Mike BoyntonLol Bear, who do you think we should hire?
I believe he is trying to refer to OSU head coach and former Gamecock player Mike BoyntonLol Bear, who do you think we should hire?
Just to play Devil's Advocate on this, there is always a group of just-missed-out teams who feel they should have been picked ... the trick is not to be in the bubble group. Bottom line: this is his ninth season, with 1 NCAA bid to show for it. Frank is a wonderful human being who runs a clean program. But 1 for 9 just doesn't fall into the "give him another year to turn it around" category for me.Stay with Frank. Frank had 2 teams that should have been invited to the NCAAT but were not. That's on the NCAA, not on Frank. This has been a strange year with a lot of disturbances. Probably not fair to consider this like other seasons.
For comparison purposes:Just to play Devil's Advocate on this, there is always a group of just-missed-out teams who feel they should have been picked ... the trick is not to be in the bubble group. Bottom line: this is his ninth season, with 1 NCAA bid to show for it. Frank is a wonderful human being who runs a clean program. But 1 for 9 just doesn't fall into the "give him another year to turn it around" category for me.
Fair enough and spot on about 8 seasons since nobody danced last year. Totally disagree about how letting him go after this year would be unfair. Bottom line is 1 for 8 after the end of the season which makes it plenty fair in my eyes. 64 teams, through a variety of circumstances, will be dancing, and barring a miracle we will once again not be one of them. Could you say Frank had bad luck in what was basically a must-win year for him? Sure. Does that mean he should get another year? Not in my opinion. Is there anything about recruiting and young talent that screams "team on the rise?" Again, in my opinion, no. We depend on length and defensive intensity to win games. Our best player is almost assuredly gone. We lack either a talented and steady backcourt (our distributors are turnover machines and our shooters aren't good enough to bail us out) or a frontcourt that can take away the paint, or score inside reliably. In other words, this team isn't really good at anything besides team defense, which shows in how we claw and scrap (admirable) but we rarely have the stars align enough to put offensive pressure on the other team, especially if we are unable to force turnovers. All that said, I'm prepared to accept that Ray will give him another year, and since it's not up to me, we'll just have to see how it goes.Technically 1 for 8 - no one made the tournament last year. And letting him go after this year is beyond unfair - when Frank has had covid twice, and his team has missed more practices and games than anyone in college basketball.
While we may disagree on the current talent level of the team, a big +1 to you for the research! Sadly, all that list shows me is that we've never found our bellcow coach - "fits and starts," as my grandmother would say, is our predominant pattern, followed by a descent and a new hire.For comparison purposes:
Frank McGuire: (1964-1980): 12 winning seasons, 5 winning seasons in ACC conference play, 7 winning seasons in Independent play, 2 seasons in 1st/2nd place ACC, 4 NCAA appearances (3 Sweet Sixteen).
Bill Foster: (1983-1986): 3 winning seasons, 2 winning seasons in Independent play, 1 winning season Metro Conference play, 0 Post-season appearances.
George Felton: (1986-1991): 4 Winning seasons, 1 winning season Metro Conference play, 1 NCAA appearance.
Steve Newton: (1991-1993): 1 Winning season, 0 winning seasons in SEC Conference play, 5th place in SEC Ease, 0 NCAA appearances.
Eddie Fogler: (1993-2001) 3 winning seasons, 2 winning seasons in conference play, 1 First place in SEC, 2 NCAA's (0 wins).
Dave Odom: (2001-2008) 4 winning seasons, 0 winning seasons in conference play, 3rd in East for SEC (best place), 1 NCAA (0 wins).
Darrin Horn: (2008-2012) 1 winning season, 0 winning seasons in conference play, 1 tie for First place in SEC, 0 NCAA appearances.
Frank Martin (2012-present) 5 winning seasons, 4 winning seasons in conference play, 2 - 3rd in SEC (best place), 1 NCAA (Final Four).
In my assessment from the above, since Fogler's tenure at USC, we've been in reverse, with the exception of Frank Martin's tenure. Martin has had one more season than Fogler, but has more total winning seasons, more winning seasons in conference play, and has the ONLY victory in the NCAA's in decades for the Gamecocks.
This is just my opinion, but I'm not ready to show the man the door yet. I think he gets a mulligan on this year, and we see how 2021-22 looks. There is a LOT of talent on this team. We've got a pretty full kitchen at every position with a small amount of retooling. If he can't right the ship next year, we let him serve out his contract and work on his replacement in his final year of the contract, with replacement ready to go immediately after NCAA Tourney.
Don't want to put words in your mouth...but...are you saying Martin is better than our worst coaches ever like Newton and Horn...not as good as our best coaches like McGuire, Foster or Felton...and about as good as Fogler...only Eddie Fogler went to more NCAA/NIT tournaments and won our only outright SEC Championship in Men's basketball history ever...so we should ignore his current performance/record? Over the last four years...a full recruiting class...Martin is coaching 500 ball and has a losing conference record...yet for some reason we should be satisfied with being a terrible basketball team and not believe we are better than this...stick with the current plan?For comparison purposes:
Frank McGuire: (1964-1980): 12 winning seasons, 5 winning seasons in ACC conference play, 7 winning seasons in Independent play, 2 seasons in 1st/2nd place ACC, 4 NCAA appearances (3 Sweet Sixteen).
Bill Foster: (1983-1986): 3 winning seasons, 2 winning seasons in Independent play, 1 winning season Metro Conference play, 0 Post-season appearances.
George Felton: (1986-1991): 4 Winning seasons, 1 winning season Metro Conference play, 1 NCAA appearance.
Steve Newton: (1991-1993): 1 Winning season, 0 winning seasons in SEC Conference play, 5th place in SEC Ease, 0 NCAA appearances.
Eddie Fogler: (1993-2001) 3 winning seasons, 2 winning seasons in conference play, 1 First place in SEC, 2 NCAA's (0 wins).
Dave Odom: (2001-2008) 4 winning seasons, 0 winning seasons in conference play, 3rd in East for SEC (best place), 1 NCAA (0 wins).
Darrin Horn: (2008-2012) 1 winning season, 0 winning seasons in conference play, 1 tie for First place in SEC, 0 NCAA appearances.
Frank Martin (2012-present) 5 winning seasons, 4 winning seasons in conference play, 2 - 3rd in SEC (best place), 1 NCAA (Final Four).
In my assessment from the above, since Fogler's tenure at USC, we've been in reverse, with the exception of Frank Martin's tenure. Martin has had one more season than Fogler, but has more total winning seasons, more winning seasons in conference play, and has the ONLY victory in the NCAA's in decades for the Gamecocks.
This is just my opinion, but I'm not ready to show the man the door yet. I think he gets a mulligan on this year, and we see how 2021-22 looks. There is a LOT of talent on this team. We've got a pretty full kitchen at every position with a small amount of retooling. If he can't right the ship next year, we let him serve out his contract and work on his replacement in his final year of the contract, with replacement ready to go immediately after NCAA Tourney.
This quite simply isn't true...after we play Miss State tomorrow night we will have played 17 games...as I type this:Hate to correct you again, but there are actually 68 NCAA tournament teams, LOL. Not that it makes missing the tournament look better, LOL.
But this does. There are 31 guaranteed slots for the 31 conference tournament champions - meaning that we are vying with 322 other teams for the remaining 37 slots. Assuming that we do not win the conference championship, that is, which is tough in the SEC.
Last year, we had a competitive team that finished in the upper half of the SEC (10-8). The only player gone from that solid team is Maik Kotsar - and that is from the entire roster. We had a guy sitting out that was looking like a strong replacement in Alanzo Frink - but he is out now.
Unless the player is a major star, you figure on your team being better the next year if youu only lose one player. Maik was solid, but so was the rest of the starting five. So - if we have most of the same talent - what else could account for our poor season?
Well, playing fewer games and practicing less than any other team in the NCAA. Which you overlook - and that is not fair to Frank. He deserves a non-covid season to show what he can do with a talented and veteran group - over a full season.
There are plenty of teams that have played about this many games, and the the good ones will be in the "field of 68" (thank you again for correcting my muscle memory on that). The only way in my mind that he would get a do-over for this season would be if he hadn't been able to play enough games to qualify for the tournament, but he has - he's just lost way too many of them. In the end, I don't buy the logic that this year shouldn't count, sorry. In addition, nothing from the whole nine-year data set - one magical year excepted - tells me this program is going anywhere.Well, playing fewer games and practicing less than any other team in the NCAA. Which you overlook - and that is not fair to Frank. He deserves a non-covid season to show what he can do with a talented and veteran group - over a full season.
Ace, you’d argue the paint off a wall, and I mean that with all admiration. So I’m not going to try to change your mind because I’ve never seen anyone successfully do it, lol. But I disagree about Lawson’s stats because like I said, in my opinion, the sets of numbers you compare are not comparable. When you are the sole scorer on a team of scrappy role players, your numbers benefit. The ball is ALWAYS looking to go though you on most sets. When you are one of four viable offensive options, you have the numbers that reflect that. So that’s my take and my reasoning. I know you don’t agree, which is cool. I hope Lawson is a huge success, and that you are right and I am wrong, because any success for our players benefits the program as a whole.I went with two things - my own two eyes and stats. In their first two years:
AJ Lawson had the edge in Points - Field Goal percentage - Three Point Shooting Percentage - FT Shooting Percentage. And, for the most part, the edge was pretty significant.
Lawson had more assists and rebounds as a Freshman, while Dozier had the edge as a Sophomore. That is it - and Dozier played 7 more minutes per game as a Sophomore than Lawson.
Your point about being surrounded by better players just make it worse - it is easier to get assists and open looks if your team is good.