FRank Martin's contract

[Swayin]

Stop it. The point - and it cannot be argued - is that Lawson is a much better shooter. Your excuses are bass ackwards - Dozier got more open looks and less emphasis from the defense because the other team was looking to stop Sin first. And Lawson still had much better shooting percentages across the board - twos, three, free throws.

I would put them pretty even outside of that - ball handling, assists, rebounding, D - but shooting/scoring is a big part of the game.

I agree that we need to start winning, and soon - but I also believe that Frank should get a full, healthy year before making a decision on letting him go. If we return most of our talent, have no major malfunctions with getting in practices and games, and still suck - it is time to make a change. Doing it based on this year - after four straight winning seasons in the SEC coming into this year - is beyond unfair.

I feel they are two very different kinds of players playing on two very different teams: PJ was more of a dribble-drive penetrator, whereas AJ is more creative about finding open looks beyond the arc, and I agree that AJ is a better 3-point shooter. Comparing their soph years since PJ was only here for two and it was AJ's last full season, AJ is a better free-throw shooter but has more turnovers than assists; PJ averaged 1 more assist per game and had a positive AST/TO ratio, and averaged more than a rebound a game more than AJ as a soph (4.8 vs 3.7) and more blocks per game as well. And yes, shooting and scoring is a big part of the game, and PJ averaged more PPG than AJ - 13.9 vs 13.4, sophomore to sophomore. They are both good players! But I remain completely unconvinced at the blanket statement that AJ was more talented as a college player. And as for Frank, what good is it to have a winning conference record for the past four years but only 1 trip to the Big Dance? To me what has killed him those other three seasons were the mystifying early season losses to the likes of UNI, BU, Stony Brook, Wofford, Wyoming, Illinois State, etc. etc.

 

[Swayin]

Great point - shot blocking is the key stat for Guards, LOL.

I covered all your excuses in advance. Lawson had more rebounds and assists as a Freshman when they were only a minute off in minutes played per game, PJ had the edge as a Sophomore - but played 7 minutes more than Lawson. So a push.

I think most people would agree that a winning conference record is a good thing - don't you? And four years in a row is even better? I agree that early season losses have been puzzling and kept us out of the dance - but Frank plays tough games early to get the team ready, which is a reason why we win most of our conference games.

Why do you feel the need to be so snarky? These aren't battles, they are discussions, and this isn't the politics forum, we are just talking about basketball? Like why do you feel the need to label my points as "excuses?"  Lively discussions are great, I'm all for them. I enjoy digging into the numbers to push an opinion, but damn dude you make it tough to want to contribute to the dialog.

 

[Longhaul]

Ace is a very powerful analyst - but people with great powers shouldn't abuse them!

Keep swingin Swayin. You are fighting the good fight!!

How sad is it that someone would log out and post as “guest” to tout themselves as a powerful analyst.  

 

[Gary]

Been a strange season.  Hopefully, next year will be better.

 

[Longhaul]

How sad is it that I logged on at work as a Guest six months ago - because I did not have my password - and that is still in your head? So no, I did not "log out", I was not able to "log in".

Swayin' had a valid complaint - you don't. You went in the opposite direction of a open discussion about basketball. Stay focus.

lol.  At least you are not having discussions with yourself this time around and telling everyone they had no idea it was you.  Anyway back to the topic. 

The track record has not been good for Frank.  Way too many players being signed only to find out they cannot compete at this level and they are gone.  I agree we cannot survive with a team full of 1 and dones, but you need to land at least one player each year that has the potential to be a one and done to give the team a spark while they rest of the lower level talents develop.  Every year we miss out on some really good players coming out of our own backyard and you would think that a good coach could land some of these and not have to go overseas or to Canada to find better talent.  We can go back and forth all day as it is just opinion.  I had high hopes for this team and for Frank, it just feels like every year there is some excuse and we are always one player away from really doing well.  9-years in I am not sure we are any better today than we were before the 2 stand out years his teams have had.  I am not saying he should not be back next year, but it this team does not have a winning record next year it is time to move on.  

 

[Swayin]

Why do you feel the need to defend a position that is obviously wrong, LOL? You were pushing Dozier being the man and I disagreed based on what I saw - and the stats back it up. Even you have to admit that having to point out an edge in blocks - for two guards - is weak. Just trying to keep you honest and the discussion real.

Oh well.

 

[Homebrewcock]

So Ace, what's it like to always be correct?  What's it like to pre-determine the other person's argument?  I do think you are very knowledgeable and use facts to back up your "OPINION".  There is no right or wrong when discussing most aspects of sports.  It is usually opinion based - even when stats are involved because we talk about different years, teams, situations etc.  I enjoy most of your knowledge and posts but I will in this instance say you are just being obnoxious.  Swayin' is giving his opinion and you yours.  Neither side is right or wrong.  It's sports.

My opinion is Frank needs to win more.  I am fine with 1 more year, but if the team does not improve next year, time to move on from Frank IMO. 

 

[markymark550]

Opinions are like assholes...

 

[Swayin]

But if you look at Dozier versus Lawson, and I note that Lawson is better because he scores more and at a higher percentage, that is pretty strong evidence in my favor. Not saying that it is totally Black, but it is at least Charcoal.

OK, let's see if we can just talk numbers, sophomore year to sophomore year: 

• Dozier averaged more PPG, 13.9 vs 13.4
  
• Dozier averaged more RPG, 4.8 vs 3.7
  
• Dozier averaged more assists per game, 2.8 vs 1.9
  
• Dozier averaged more steals per game, 1.7 vs 1.2
  
• Dozier had more assists than turnovers; Lawson had more turnovers than assists
  
• Dozier had three times as many blocks; you dismiss that as a stat but he almost had as many per game as Kotsar, our tallest player, so it's a valid difference IMO.
  
• I agree, Lawson has better numbers from behind the arc, 34% to 30% (rounded both up)
  
• Their 2-pt FG % is very close, but edge to Lawson, 49% to 45%.
  

Lawson is having his best year as a Gamecock this year - his numbers are higher in most categories than they were in his second year, which is great. I wish PJ had stayed so we could see what a third year with Sin gone to the league would have resulted in. But I look at the numbers above, taking into account the differences in the teams and playing styles, and I don't see that Lawson is unequivocally the better player when you compare the two seasons. I know you disagree Ace, but I think it's OK to have two different takes and just agree to disagree.

 

[doublea1971]

OK, let's see if we can just talk numbers, sophomore year to sophomore year: 

• Dozier averaged more PPG, 13.9 vs 13.4
  
• Dozier averaged more RPG, 4.8 vs 3.7
  
• Dozier averaged more assists per game, 2.8 vs 1.9
  
• Dozier averaged more steals per game, 1.7 vs 1.2
  
• Dozier had more assists than turnovers; Lawson had more turnovers than assists
  
• Dozier had three times as many blocks; you dismiss that as a stat but he almost had as many per game as Kotsar, our tallest player, so it's a valid difference IMO.
  
• I agree, Lawson has better numbers from behind the arc, 34% to 30% (rounded both up)
  
• Their 2-pt FG % is very close, but edge to Lawson, 49% to 45%.
  

Lawson is having his best year as a Gamecock this year - his numbers are higher in most categories than they were in his second year, which is great. I wish PJ had stayed so we could see what a third year with Sin gone to the league would have resulted in. But I look at the numbers above, taking into account the differences in the teams and playing styles, and I don't see that Lawson is unequivocally the better player when you compare the two seasons. I know you disagree Ace, but I think it's OK to have two different takes and just agree to disagree.

@Swayin come on dude... watch the great win.  Drop the Lawson/Dozier stuff.

 

[Swayin]

he is just a better shooter

He is. But I think PJ is a better dribble-penetrator who increasingly found a way to manufacture his own shot ... we really saw this emerge in the tournament, IMO.

OK, I'm done. We may never agree, and that's awesome! Finding the ability to disagree and move on is what I really wanted.

 

[kingofnerf]

That is the biggest difference in their styles - Lawson drives hard and fast to the rim, but sometimes gets manhandled due to his lack of muscle. Dozier was slower and more under control - but he was going up against Point Guards, and he always had a big height advantage.

I think Dozier had an injury (shoulder?) that sidelined him in HS and it may have impacted his shooting, especially as a Freshman. But Lawson has a better stroke.

I believe PJ had knee surgery right before he came to us.

Frank used to occasionally talk about him getting his confidence with his knee back.

 

[kingofnerf]

I looked it up - he had a torn ACL that he played with for years, then missed his Junior year of HS. He should have been okay physically when he came to us - he played his Senior year of HS - but if he dealt with it for years, it would still be in his head.

All the more reason for Dozier to stay in college for another year or two - it would have made a big difference in Frank's record, maybe meant another NCAA tourney bid. 

It will be interesting to see if Lawson sticks for four years or heads out on a down note,

Yeah, PJ should really have stayed another year or so.

I think that's the grain of slat when you begin to criticize Frank's post-FF record, whether you're a fan or a booster.

Losing PJ killed us.  Probably two more 20-win seasons at least if he had stayed.

 

[kingofnerf]

We would be lying to ourselves if the threat of possible NCAA sanctions weren't used by recruiters from other schools against us the last few years.

Nobody's going to pay good money for season tickets next year to watch a glorified playground team get its arses kicked the whole year.

 

[Swayin]

@Swayin come on dude... watch the great win.  Drop the Lawson/Dozier stuff.

LOL, it's a discussion, you can participate, or not, either is fine. But if we're not on a board to have lengthy hypothetical (and in the end pointless, since Ray isn't going to listen to us either way) discussions, what are we supposed to talk about?

 

[The Bear]

We have a bad team but not bad players, and Lawson is not definitely gone.

If Lawson stays, we just lose Woods, who has helped in three games and hurt us in the rest. Normal development and getting more practice could dramatically improve what we ae seeing or the floor this year.

Frank deserves the chance to have a full year to coach his players. If we suck next year, I do not think that we will need to fire him - I expect that he will leave on his own.

don't know what you're looking at but the CAROLINA PLAYERS JUST SUCK, BADJUST BAD TALENT NOT THERE.

 

[The Bear]

I was looking at the game and the problem was shooting. Two pointers, three pointers and free throws - especially the last two.

Arky had as much or more pressure on them when they were shooting but they made their shots. If our guys had never shot well, then you might have a point. But Couisnard shot well last year, Minaya was reliable from three as a Freshman, Seventh was an all-World recruit coming out of HS.

Frank can get them into schemes and sets to get them open, but he cannot shoot the ball for them.

still say it' talent, don't care what they look like in H.S.  they can't transfer it over to college, They just cannot get off of screens, and cover people

 

[The Bear]

still say it' talent, don't care what they look like in H.S.  they can't transfer it over to college, They just cannot get off of screens, and cover people

Woods look like he never has seen an basketball at times or where he is at.

 

[The Bear]

when you can't recruit you take what you can get I guess.

 

[Swayin]

Lost 9 of our last 11, and lost our last two regular season games by 56 points or so ... Frank or no Frank, it's hard to be pumped up about this team or its prospects.