It has been reported that Frank met with Tanner on Monday. There are no indications that Frank has been fired. But there are indications he has not been fired. Players are not announcing they are leaving. Frank's staff is still recruiting. No announcement of a firing has been made.
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Frank Is Gone
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
@Swayin Just to play devil's advocate, I'm going to take you down a memory lane trip to see who we had playing for us when Coach Martin came in (including the horror show of a roster that was left to him by the Coach who shall remain nameless).
Roster in 2012-13:
Lashay Page (6'2" Guard, Senior) - Transfer recruited by Frank Martin
Brenton Williams (5'11" Guard, 172 lbs, Junior)
Brian Richardson (6'4" Guard, 175 lbs, Junior)
Eric Smith (5'11 Guard, 205 lbs, Junior)
Laimonas Chatkevicious (6'11" Center, 245 lbs., Freshman) - Recruited by Frank Martin
Bruce Ellington (5'9" Guard, 196 lbs., Junior)
Michael Carrera (6'5" Forward, 214 lbs, Freshman) - Recruited by Frank Martin
Mindaugas Kacinas (6'7" Forward, 229 lbs., Freshman) - Recruited by Frank Martin
Lakeem Jackson (6'5" Small Forward, 235 lbs, Senior)
Damien Leonard (6'4" Guard, 190 lbs., Sophomore)
R.J. Slawson (6'8" Forward, Junior)
Carleton Geathers (6'10" Center, RS Sophomore)
Walk-ons:
Brian Steele
Shane Phillips
Austin Constable
Of that crew, here's the rundown...
LaShay Page - ruled academically ineligible after 9 games (due to a transcript issue) and would not return to the court. Was one of the three leading scorers (avg. PPG) on the team at the time of losing him.
Brenton Williams - Struggled defensively under Coach Martin's new system. Lost playing time to Bruce Ellington, once Bruce returned from Football. Would step up the following year as a Senior, but rough Junior outing. Led the team at 11.0PPG
Eric Smith - Avg. 5.7PPG (Played in 32 games, started 27 of them, averaged 27.7 minutes/game) - Transferred after season to Coastal Carolina University.
Brian Richardson - Avg. 7.5PPG (Played in 31 games, started 9 of them, averaged 18.3 minutes/game) - Transferred after season to High Point University (DII School).
Lakeem Jackson - Avg. 7.5PPG (Played in 32 games, started 30 of them, averaged 28.7 minutes/game)
Damien Leonard - Avg. 4.0PPG (Played in 28 games, averaged 14.8 minutes/game) - Transferred after season to Georgia Southwestern State University (DII School).
RJ Slawson - Avg. 4.2PPG (Played in 32 games, averaged 15.8 minutes/game) - Transferred after season to Jacksonville University.
Carleton Geathers would never see time on the court as a Gamecock due to knee injury sustained in off-season.
Coach Martin was left, after just a handful of games, with a team of 10 players who could see the court, plus 3 walk-ons. Only ONE of them would average double figures. We were in SUCH bad shape that one of our walk-ons was called on so much by the end of the year (Brian Steele), that he would eventually earn himself a scholarship to play for USC. And of Coach Martin's freshman recruits, only Michael Carrera had a decent season scoring average (at 9.9PPG).
So tell me how Coach Martin's 1st season SHOULD count towards the total, given how handicapped he was? I mean, come on... even the best coaches around couldn't turn THAT group into a winning season. (And that's not bashing on the players... I actually really liked Lakeem Jackson and RJ Slawson. They just weren't SEC caliber players).
I'm NOT making excuses for Coach Martin... He made his own bed this season, for certain. But sometimes history looks a bit more rosy in the rear view mirror than it actually was. 2012-13 was a TERRIBLE year for the Gamecocks. Coach Martin inherited a squad that could barely average 67PPG on the year, and managed a paltry 60PPG in conference play (and that includes two games that went into OT, one of which we only managed to score 54 points).
It is absurd to me that anyone thinks that Coach Martin's first year can be held against him. But I seem to be in the minority on that.
I thought Leonard transferred to Furman before Georgia Southwestern State?
High Point is a D1 school. They're in the Big South (same conference as Winthrop, Presbyterian, and Charleston Southern).
High Point is a D1 school. They're in the Big South (same conference as Winthrop, Presbyterian, and Charleston Southern).
Because he was the coach. He took the job knowing the players he had, and he certainly got paid to be the coach ... so the idea that his record for that season shouldn't count, to me, has no merit ... especially give the underlying idea that it *would* be "counted" if it was more favorable.
Actually, in my eyes, Frank's record those first few years isn't the issue. No one is saying he had an all-star cast (how many coaches who come on after a guy is fired do? Some but not many), but I think the reality of why Frank's record in total isn't a more persuasive reason to keep him is because of his lack of making any hay at all with the Final Four run.
I'm not expecting to change your mind, and truth be told I am not rabidly anti-Frank. Just the opposite - I can barely scrape up the will to discuss the program, as the Martin era, with one shining moment as an exception, has been a total and complete "meh." Not horrid, not good, just somewhere in that gray area where it is really easy just to forget about it alltogether.
doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
I stand corrected on High Point University. I had it in my mind that they moved to the D1 level later than they actually did (It appears, much to the surprise of my failing mind, they joined in 1999).
As to Leonard at Furman, here's a quote from the Greenville News from June 24th, 2014 - https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/sports/college/furman/2014/06/24/rwabigwi-leonard-leaving-furman/11317367/
"The Furman men's basketball team has lost one player who displayed some promising moments as a freshman and another who never got the chance to display his skills in a Paladin uniform....
Medved said Leonard's experience at Furman "just didn't work out" and that Leonard has landed at Georgia Southwestern, a member of the NCAA Division II Peach Belt Conference. He will have two years of eligibility left."
Leonard sat out his year at Furman due to NCAA transfer rules.
doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
I totally get it... wasn't trying to come off as saying your POV is not understood, or that I think you're somehow stupid for not agreeing with me.
I just don't share that perspective, that the early years of a long-term career for a coach at a particular school should be held against them. Yes, those individuals come into the situation with their eyes WIDE open, knowing what they've inherited... I certainly agree with you there.
You said above that you're not "rabidly anti-Frank". Heck... I'm a HUGE Frank Martin apologist, and I'll say that if he doesn't get it done next year, I TOO will fall into the camp of calling for a new coach at USC.
But my problem with judging the man on this season is that he's gone from 14-18 (4-14) in 2012-13, to 14-20 (5-13) in 2013-14 to 17-16 (6-12) in 2014-15 to 25-9 (11-7) in 2015-16 to 26-11 (12-6) in 2016-17 to 17-16 (7-11) in 2017-18 to 16-16 (11-7) in 2018-19 to 18-13 (10-8) in 2019-20. (And then, of course, there was this year).
So he built the Gamecocks from the very bottom of the barrel to a Final Four team. Then the Final Four team is followed by one rebuild year, and then he's maintained a level of high consistency in the last 2 seasons (in the upper tier of the SEC - check the records on the Wiki pages below - and on the bubble for the NCAAs both years, per guys like Bilas and Lunardi and Katz). During that time, we've been competitive in the SEC with a winning record AND we beat ranked Virginia and Kentucky last year, putting us in position to return to the NCAA (or at least a high seed in the NIT) .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Southeastern_Conference_men's_basketball_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_Southeastern_Conference_men's_basketball_season
My perspective is that the above is showing as consistent of a job as any of the other top teams coaches in the league. So, I'm going to lean in to the idea that we should let him prove himself next year. I believe he can do so, especially with the level of talent on this year's squad.
Only time will tell, my friend. Only time will tell.
Is it usually true to say it is better to fire a coach too soon than too late?
I can live with that! I really see good points from folks on both sides of the issue. To be honest, I think the fallout from firing him right now would eclipse the benefit of a new guy anyway.
doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
Nope, but it is usually true that it’s better to give a coach an extension too late rather than too soon. (See Muschamp, Will or Horn, Darrin).
SanAntonioCock
GCF Top Poster
Mike Boynton is not leaving Oklahoma State. He was on the search committee that picked the new University president.
If Frank is being fired, I don't see what incentive he would have to not demand his buyout and make a clean break with USC. This business about giving him time to find another job to save him embarrassment seems like a crock to me. I don't see Frank playing that game. I also don't see Frank trying to help USC not pay his buyout if they want to fire him. Frank would be stupid to agree to be fired without being paid what he is owed. And Frank is not stupid. Neither is his agent.
I don't know what is actually going on, but I don't believe the rumors about a "soft landing" for Frank have any validity.
I don't know what is actually going on, but I don't believe the rumors about a "soft landing" for Frank have any validity.
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doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
It's an interesting Tweet. I've been checking regularly, and no Gamecocks have popped up in the NCAA portal as of yet. I wonder if there's a good sense of loyalty amongst the current Gamecocks on Frank's squad right now. (You have to assume that he's met with at least a good portion of his student-athletes, since the season ended for them almost two weeks ago now).
I've also seen comments from signees Wright and Carter, neither of which even hint at their having changed their minds about coming to USC.
doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
Frank Martin is not naive. He would not have made outright offers to High School students like those two (and others) if he was not well aware of openings forthcoming/scholarships to be filled. Think about Seventh Woods, for example. Seventh was paying his own way during his transfer year on the bench, because Frank was honest in saying that if he wanted to become a Gamecock, he would not be able to do by way of a scholarship at that time.
My only assumption at this point is that there will be 2-3 transfers from the program (or simply someone leaving the program, as Patrick Iriel did in the summer months last year). I can only make an educated guess at who those individuals will be, and I can also only make an educated guess that the staff is keeping the scholarship limit well in hand, and front and center of their thoughts right now.
Yes, some guys are leaving, if Frank stays at USC. But as of now, they are not leaving because Frank is leaving. If Frank was being fired, I believe he would have told his team, and his coaches. If the players knew he was being fired, I believe at least one of them would have announced his plans to transfer by now. Unless the guys that will transfer plan to go with Frank to his new school. And I doubt Frank has promised any of his current players a spot at another school when there is no indication that another school is going to hire Frank.
The evidence that Frank is being fired does not exist, unless you want to count rumors as evidence. The evidence that Frank is staying is that no players or recruits have announced they won't be at USC next season, assistant coaches continue to recruit; neither USC or Frank has made any announcement; No other school that i am aware of has said that Frank is a candidate for their head coach position. So, all we have are rumors that Frank is being fired with nothing to support those rumors.
And, Frank would be a fool to let USC fire him without paying him the remainder of his contract. And Frank is not a fool. So, from what I know right now, I think Frankis staying.
They usually get fired very soon after the season is over if it's going to happen.
All the "soft landing" talk may have just meant we were going to give Frank a parachute if he felt he couldn't coach the team anymore for whatever the reason rather than have him forfeit his buy-out money.
Great another .500 record at tops and no postseason.
hopefully Arkansas enjoys their deep run and represents the SEC well. Congratulations to them and Erik Musselman, a damned good coach
hopefully Arkansas enjoys their deep run and represents the SEC well. Congratulations to them and Erik Musselman, a damned good coach
doublea1971
GCF Top Poster
GamecocksCentral/Rivals has a paywall article (which I cannot see, as I'm not a subscriber) about Coach Martin's immanent return. Their daily newsletter, which is free, offers the following information:
"Martin's return as Gamecocks head coach moving closer - Frank Martin's official return for a tenth season as head coach of the South Carolina men's basketball program is moving closer, GamecockCentral has learned." (there is then a link to the subscription site).
"Martin's return as Gamecocks head coach moving closer - Frank Martin's official return for a tenth season as head coach of the South Carolina men's basketball program is moving closer, GamecockCentral has learned." (there is then a link to the subscription site).