Will Frank Return?

[Gary]

Yeah, not a good look for us if we can Frank. Unless Frank has serious enough health issues that he is ready to call it quits - and says so.

Outside of his ties to Frank, Anthony Grant had limited success at Alabama, so he would not be at the top of my list. We already tried that in football - hiring someone that failed at another SEC school.

Boynton would be a good pick, but we would not be a step up and I am not sure how strong his ties are to his alma mater. But no need to dwell on this now - we still have a coach.

I don't believe Frank's health is bad, or getting worse.  He looks and sounds to me like he is improving.   When Frank sits down with Tanner after the season and talks things over,  I think Tanner is going to realize that this season is not reason enough to fire Frank.  Frank isn't going to resign, so if he leaves he will have to be fired.   I don't think Tanner is going to do that and pay Frank $6.5 million not to coach USC.  I think Tanner is going to give Frank another year that will hopefully be without Covid and see what happens.  

There are always going to be coaches available that will be interested in the USC job.   It isn't like we have to move quickly to get a certain coach or he will be gone somewhere  else and we'll never get him.    Such a coach probably does not exist anyway.    Hopefully,  Frank will be the coach next season and it will be a good one.

 

[LBC]

Yeah, not a good look for us if we can Frank. Unless Frank has serious enough health issues that he is ready to call it quits - and says so.

Outside of his ties to Frank, Anthony Grant had limited success at Alabama, so he would not be at the top of my list. We already tried that in football - hiring someone that failed at another SEC school.

Boynton would be a good pick, but we would not be a step up and I am not sure how strong his ties are to his alma mater. But no need to dwell on this now - we still have a coach.

Anthony Grant was fired at Alabama with a much better record...more actual success...winning %...conference winning %...tournament invites...than Frank has now...Bama just had higher standards than we do. Grant was fired from Bama with a 18-14 record and a second round appearance in the NIT...18-14 would be Franks 4th best record out of the 9 years he's been at USC. He also has two national title rings while at Florida. He was the Gators number one recruiter for a decade and responsible for almost all of their top talent that got them to those multiple national titles. His work at VCU is far better than anything Frank has ever produced...even with the gift that was Michael Beasley that first year at K-State. He was also just named the national coach of the year by just about every respectable basketball organization in the country this past year. For example...last year the Naismith coaches of the year were Dawn Staley and Anthony Grant. 

Trying to compare him to Muschamp based SOLELY on the fact he also once had a job at another SEC school...where he out preformed our current coach...is beyond flimsy and actually brings into question the rest of the analysis we are all supposed to believe is proof of something or another. In fact...your own argument would suggest you can't believe Alabama would have ever fired Grant in the first place because of how awesome he was!

 

[doublea1971]

Just as an FYI... there's an article on the State's Gamecocks page today (though I think it's behind a paywall) re: Frank Martin addressing the coaching change rumors.  In it, he said exactly what I expected to hear...

"This is my home, my family loves it here. I love it here. ... I'm not gonna sit here and brace about who we are as a family, but we have given ourselves to this community. I said it from Day 1, I don't want to be known as the basketball coach. I want to be known as a member of this community. And that's what we've done."

The article also says this...

"Martin said Tuesday that team hit the 'reset button' after the Final Four hear and finally built back up to being a 'postseason team' last year, when the Gamecocks finished 18-13 (10-8) before the season was cut short due to COVID-19...."

Martin goes on to say this, "'I'm going to visit with my bosses, who I respect tremendously, when the season ends, and they know where I stand,' Martin said. 'They all know that I've had countless opportunities to leave and I've chosen not to even talk, let alone leave.  And this is our home.  This is what we love.  When the season ends, I'll have those conversations.  And if I'm wanted, this is where I want to call home. ... I fixed this program. And I know what's not working this year, but the program ain't broke.  So whenever I can hit the reset button, we fixed it once from a bad situation.  We'll fix it again."

 

[markymark550]

@Ace Dilcock Obi Toppin isn't at Kentucky. He's in the NBA playing for the Knicks. His brother, Jacob, plays for Kentucky after transferring from Rhode Island.

 

[Gary]

Just as an FYI... there's an article on the State's Gamecocks page today (though I think it's behind a paywall) re: Frank Martin addressing the coaching change rumors.  In it, he said exactly what I expected to hear...

"This is my home, my family loves it here. I love it here. ... I'm not gonna sit here and brace about who we are as a family, but we have given ourselves to this community. I said it from Day 1, I don't want to be known as the basketball coach. I want to be known as a member of this community. And that's what we've done."

The article also says this...

"Martin said Tuesday that team hit the 'reset button' after the Final Four hear and finally built back up to being a 'postseason team' last year, when the Gamecocks finished 18-13 (10-8) before the season was cut short due to COVID-19...."

Martin goes on to say this, "'I'm going to visit with my bosses, who I respect tremendously, when the season ends, and they know where I stand,' Martin said. 'They all know that I've had countless opportunities to leave and I've chosen not to even talk, let alone leave.  And this is our home.  This is what we love.  When the season ends, I'll have those conversations.  And if I'm wanted, this is where I want to call home. ... I fixed this program. And I know what's not working this year, but the program ain't broke.  So whenever I can hit the reset button, we fixed it once from a bad situation.  We'll fix it again."

Given that USC is paying Muschamp to not coach USC football, and given that revenues are down because of Covid, I don't think Tanner is going to want to pay Frank $6.5 million not to coach USC basketball right now.    That is one of the reasons i think Frank will be the coach next season.

I think Tanner should tell Frank that he must win more in order to remain the coach.   Frank was hired to WIN basketball games, not just to coach the team.   Based on the wins Frank has produced since the Final Four year, I believe Frank is over paid.   His salary is too high based on the number of wins he has produced.   USC could hire someone for half of what they are paying Frank and get as many wins as Frank has produced since the Final Four.   So, Tanner needs to tell Frank that he MUST reach either the NCAAT, or the NIT next season, or he will be replaced.    If you don't win enough, you get fired.  That's the nature of the business.    But I do think Frank should be the coach next season.

 

[kingofnerf]

Just as an FYI... there's an article on the State's Gamecocks page today (though I think it's behind a paywall) re: Frank Martin addressing the coaching change rumors.  In it, he said exactly what I expected to hear...

"This is my home, my family loves it here. I love it here. ... I'm not gonna sit here and brace about who we are as a family, but we have given ourselves to this community. I said it from Day 1, I don't want to be known as the basketball coach. I want to be known as a member of this community. And that's what we've done."

The article also says this...

"Martin said Tuesday that team hit the 'reset button' after the Final Four hear and finally built back up to being a 'postseason team' last year, when the Gamecocks finished 18-13 (10-8) before the season was cut short due to COVID-19...."

Martin goes on to say this, "'I'm going to visit with my bosses, who I respect tremendously, when the season ends, and they know where I stand,' Martin said. 'They all know that I've had countless opportunities to leave and I've chosen not to even talk, let alone leave.  And this is our home.  This is what we love.  When the season ends, I'll have those conversations.  And if I'm wanted, this is where I want to call home. ... I fixed this program. And I know what's not working this year, but the program ain't broke.  So whenever I can hit the reset button, we fixed it once from a bad situation.  We'll fix it again."

Martin's system is a good one that can bring winning seasons just like Spurrier's, but it doesn't work without the right players just like Spurrier's.

He's got a competitive system, but the record says something IS broken somewhere this season.

Frank's had to deal with a painful knee replacement this past summer.  He was having trouble with the knee last season and couldn't stand up on the sidelines many times to coach the team during games, but they still pulled things together in the last half of the season last year.

Then he's had to worry about potential NCAA sanctions that might cost him his job and maybe his career.  Then the Covid stuff at the same time.

His players should have tried extra hard to play in the system this year like they have in the past, but stopped doing it at some point for whatever the reason.

All the other schools in the country have had to deal with Covid this year and last, but most play better than us.

The team has been drastically non-competitive this year for whatever the reason.  Something IS broken somewhere.

 

[markymark550]

Scuse me - I was not aware there was a Toppin before this year. I had no idea there were two.

Same issue - Grant's player, he gone. And the program went down with him.

No disagreement with the rest of that post though. I just know you like to bring facts and thought you would appreciate the correction. 

 

[kingofnerf]

Gene Sapakov of the Post & Courier just said on 107.5 that a "soft landing package" is trying to be worked out by the school for Frank in preparation for a parting of the ways.

 

[LBC]

Apples to oranges. Grant had success at VCU but he inherited a good team from Jeff Capel, who left to coach Oklahoma after four years that included an NIT and an NCAA appearance. And VCU did even better after Grant left and Shaka Smart took over - 6 seasons with 5 NCAA tourneys, making it to the Second Round twice, the Third Round twice - and a Final Four appearance. In the lone season that Smart missed the NCAA, he still won the conference championship.

At Alabama, he took over for Mark Gottfried, who had 5 NCAA appearances (including an Elite 8) and three NIT appearances (including a runner-up) in 10+ seasons. His successor, Avery Johnson, resigned after four seasons that included an NCAA berth and three NITs.

At Dayton, Grant took over for Archie Miller at a school with a strong basketball tradition. Miller took them to four straight NCAA tournaments, including an Elite Eight, before getting a better job. In his fourth year, Grant has yet to make the NCAA (although he would have made it last year if not for covid). This year they are 14-9, with Grant's best recruit now at Kentucky (Obi Toppin),

Frank took over the South Carolina program from Darrin Horn. The enormity of the rebuild is that I do not even need to go into Horn's record - just type his name in.

In other words, Grant coached at schools with better programs and higher standards - where coaches actually leave for better jobs, or at least can find another head coaching job. And he inherited good players, so he could succeed quickly.

South Carolina? Fogler and Odom stopped coaching, and Horn became an assistant coach (he is now Head Coach at Northern Kentucky). And Frank inherited zilch in terms of players.

Yeah...That probably explains why Grant was just named the 2020 Naismith Coach of the Year, 2020 AP National Coach of the Year, 2020 Henry Iba Award Winner, 2020 NABC Coach of the Year, 2020 Sporting News Coach of the Year and the 2020 Atlantic 10 Coach of the year three years in at Dayton

Not to mention the better overall record at Bama than Martin does at South Carolina...yet was still fired after going 31-33 his last two years vs Martin's current 24-25 over his last two...or to be more exact...Martins winning % his last two years is 48.98 and Grants was 48.45 at Bama...one was fired while the other guy should be given a one year extension for some reason...this is of course the only point at which Martin has the better winning percentage...as slight as it may be...toss those two years out and at no other time is it the case or this close...not at VCU, Bama or Dayton.

Fun facts:

Dave Odom actually won the NIT twice...back to back...and made it to the finals of another while at South Carolina. He actually coached the Gamecocks to a post season tournament 4 of the 7 seasons he was here...he has more than twice as many 20 win seasons in 7 years as Martins does in 9...and also has a higher overall career winning percentage while at the helm at USC than Frank does...yet he still needed to be fired...and he never coached again.

But you do make one good point...I'd take Shaka Smart in a heartbeat...hell of a basketball coach...even though he has a lower winning percentage at VCU than Grant does...despite playing with all Grants recruits or what ever you keep claiming is the reason Grant wins so much more than Martin does everywhere he goes...but yeah...I'm down with Shaka!

 

[Gary]

Gene Sapakov of the Post & Courier just said on 107.5 that a "soft landing package" is trying to be worked out by the school for Frank in preparation for a parting of the ways.

That's interesting.    If Frank is fired,  I just hope that USC hires someone I like.   But, I don't expect it will be anyone who is friends with Frank.

I like Pat Kelsey from Winthrop.   Richie McKay from Liberty is a great coach.  Don't know  if he would be interested.

If a new coach is hired, there could be a lot of changes to the roster for next year.     I would expect some of the current players to leave, and some of the current  recruits to not join the program.    

 

[doublea1971]

Gene Sapakov of the Post & Courier just said on 107.5 that a "soft landing package" is trying to be worked out by the school for Frank in preparation for a parting of the ways.

That's interesting.    If Frank is fired,  I just hope that USC hires someone I like.   But, I don't expect it will be anyone who is friends with Frank.

I like Pat Kelsey from Winthrop.   Richie McKay from Liberty is a great coach.  Don't know  if he would be interested.

If a new coach is hired, there could be a lot of changes to the roster for next year.     I would expect some of the current players to leave, and some of the current  recruits to not join the program.    

Because @kingofnerf got me thinking about this, I looked up Jay Phillips conversation today with Gene Sapakoff on 107.5 The Game.  Sapakov concluded re: Martin’s return to USC, 


That basically means Sapakoff has a hunch, but not much more than that.

USC may indeed be working on a contractual agreement with Coach Martin, but it’s likely in case he decides that his health issues preclude him from returning.  I doubt it’s a buyout at this point.

 

[Gary]

Frank was smart to come out and say that Columbia was home and he wanted to stay - and even that he had turned down overtures from other programs. That means that Ray and the university will look like the bad guys if they pull the trigger.

What I hope is that this is posturing for negotiation purposes. Frank agrees to stay with a reduced buyout, but with added incentives. That would be a win-win - everyone comes out ahead if Frank qualifies for the incentives, while the program gets back on solid ground.

If Frank does not meet the incentives, then we can move on with the knowledge that we were fair - and we save on the buy-out.

I think Frank was sincere about what he said.  I believe he wants to keep his job and live in Columbia.   In order to keep his job, Frank might be willing to renegotiate the remainder of his contract.    I have never understood why schools agree to pay a coach if they fire them.    In the world I live in, that never happens.   You get paid only if you are employed in most jobs.   But if you don't work, you don't get paid.    I think Tanner is crazy if he adds any years to Frank's contract and agrees to buyout his contract if he is fired.  And that would be true for any coach that is hired.

If Frank is allowed to stay, there has to be results starting next season.   Frank  knows he was hired to win games.   So it should not be a surprise to him if he is fired for not winning enough.  

 

[Gary]

Covid seems to be bringing some sanity back to coach's salaries - nothing like paying out huge sums to staffs without getting much from ticket sales, or parking, or concessions. And TV revenue has to have peaked - people are cutting the cable and ESPN is bleeding red ink, and will not be able to throw money at the conferences like they have in the past.

Which is why we should be able to work something out with Frank - he knows that his marketablity has dropped at the same time that money has gotten tight, while our ability to eat another buy-out is greatly diminished.

If Frank really wants to stay at USC, he will be open to negotiating some changes.

 

[kingofnerf]

Because @kingofnerf got me thinking about this, I looked up Jay Phillips conversation today with Gene Sapakoff on 107.5 The Game.  Sapakov concluded re: Martin’s return to USC, 


That basically means Sapakoff has a hunch, but not much more than that.

USC may indeed be working on a contractual agreement with Coach Martin, but it’s likely in case he decides that his health issues preclude him from returning.  I doubt it’s a buyout at this point.

Sapakov led off by saying he didn't think we should fire a Final Four coach in light of the team's 3 Covid interruptions and the fact that he got it twice, which I agree with on its own.

If he physically couldn't coach some of the games, he should have just let Bruce Shingler do it a few more times and then get back into it when he was ready.  I thought the NCAA stuff had already been resolved last year, but that has been the elephant in the room if you stop and think about it.

Why go to the trouble of helping a coach be successful if possible NCAA sanctions will allow you to fire him for cause without having to pay his buyout like the Vols did with Pruitt?

The only issue I have with Frank is when his players stop following his system and he throws up his hands and stops coaching them in games that we eventually lose.  This oddity has gotten worse the last 3 years and puts us way behind the curve for any post-season invitations.  No tournament selection committee will ever award a team or coach like that if we are in competition with other programs that don't do stuff like that.

I believe he's burned out and it probably won't get any better next year.  Ole Miss will probably beat us by 30 tomorrow night and I have NEVER felt that way until right now.

Some people are so sure of themselves that you have to threaten them with termination to get them to change.  I used to be like that and I had to make a conscious effort to change.  It's easier said than done.

I think what is going on now is about the past two or three seasons before this one.

Arizona finally admitted recently that they had received notice of 5 Level 1 NCAA items, but they are staying behind Sean Miller because he has continued to win games.

Sapakov felt strongly about his hunch given who he said he had talked to.

 

[FurmanCock]

If Tanner is looking to replace Coach Martin...I really hope there is a scenario where he stays at SC in some position or capacity.  There has not been a coach at the school in my lifetime who I believe holds the interest of his players any higher than Coach Martin.  I think his candor and honesty would benefit our athletic program as a whole.

And I tend to fall on the side of the argument that it may be a time to make a coaching change.  Sometimes, for whatever reason, it's just not working.

 

[Swayin]

I kind of judge a program by how excited I am about it. Very excited about baseball. Very excited about football although we certainly all know CSB has years of work to do to get us back to the where we were. Always super excited top see what CDS has in store for us with the Lady G's.

Men's basketball? Ugh. And it doesn't need to be that way. I believe Frank is a good man and that he gave it his all. But the product is not one that is building excitement in the fan base, IMO.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Given that USC is paying Muschamp to not coach USC football, and given that revenues are down because of Covid, I don't think Tanner is going to want to pay Frank $6.5 million not to coach USC basketball right now.    That is one of the reasons i think Frank will be the coach next season.

I think Tanner should tell Frank that he must win more in order to remain the coach.   Frank was hired to WIN basketball games, not just to coach the team.   Based on the wins Frank has produced since the Final Four year, I believe Frank is over paid.   His salary is too high based on the number of wins he has produced.   USC could hire someone for half of what they are paying Frank and get as many wins as Frank has produced since the Final Four.   So, Tanner needs to tell Frank that he MUST reach either the NCAAT, or the NIT next season, or he will be replaced.    If you don't win enough, you get fired.  That's the nature of the business.    But I do think Frank should be the coach next season.

I concur.

 

[Swayin]

I was VERY excited after last season - but covid changed all of that, just like it tanked the baseball season last year, and impacted foosball.

Getting excited because of a coaching change can be Fool's Gold. The reality is that the fresh start comes with player turnover, rebuilding with younger guys, and years of struggles with younger guys - like what Frank had to endure when he took over for Horn. On top of not knowing if the new guy is a better coach than what you had, or if he is a good fit, the financial hit.....

 I am excited about next year WITH FRANK simply because we return everyone and there will be no covid - so, starting with the Pro Am, we will have ongoing good news until tipoff. 

That's the thing - I don't even know if I'm excited about a coaching change, because of the reasons you note, and I just can't manage the vision you have of next year being better either. I guess it will all play out.

 

[Sporkgod50]

I agree with you.

also in my opinion the Will Muschamp situation was different from the Frank Martin situation because Will Muschamp has proven to be a bad game day coach at Florida and at South Carolina. The school did not need to continue to have him on the sidelines being mediocre to horrible.

Frank Martin has had success here and at Kansas State.

i think can still do wonders as a head coach but he does need a star player or two. He needs a Sindarius Thornwell or a Michael Beasley...he’ll even a Chris Silva as a cornerstone to his teams. Nobody stepped forward to fill that need this year. We may not have star caliber player on the roster yet even if we have some very good and inconsistent role players

I want him to get one more year. His approach was never going to work in a COVID year. And completely agree on this being a different situation from CWM. 

 

[kingofnerf]

Been seriously following Frank's teams since the 2013-14 season.

The teams have had a mentality like a bunch of spoiled, narcissistic, selfish women most of the time.

If the Final Four squad was on this year's team, one or more players would have already stepped up to try to save the season and Frank would have still been engaged in the season at this point instead of where he is at not.  Sin, Duane, somebody.

The academic Honor Roll kids were the ones that got the 20-win seasons and the FF run a few years ago.

From a leadership standpoint, the guys on this year's team are a bunch of scrubs.  That's why we're in this mess right now and most of them can hop in the portal as far as I'm concerned.