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Frank Is Gone

Agreed. Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you want to play for Frank Martin?

Zion Williamson, right there for the taking. 1 and done type if there ever was one. He has to spend a year in college, you think he wants to spend it with a prick like Martin? It is not just the hard handed stuff, players can respond to that if they respect the man giving the tough love. Watch that last chance show on Netflix, now thats a coach kids are drawn too, he screams and yells with the best of them. We need a guy like that. A guy that everyone respects. 
As someone who is a Frank supporter I would like to see him tone it down some.  Apparently those players that do end up signing with him love him.  I remember Michael Carrera in particular falling into Frank's arms and sobbing like a child who's puppy had just been run over on Senior night a few years ago.  That being said I can see both cases for keeping him as well as letting him go.  If he comes back next year we need to see dramatic improvement, the excuses will have completely run out by then IMO.

 
the AAU posts on here too are misguided. Frank Martin is an AAU guy. His entire career is based on landing Michael Beasley at Kansas State, that was a heavy handed AAU effort. Martin has brought in assistants with deep AAU ties including Beasley's own AAU coach.

What is my point? Chasing AAU ball is not the way. Get a guy who can flat out coach young men. There is talent everywhere AAU and non-AAU, some players avoid that all together. Look at the guy at Virginia and the guy at Texas Tech. They dont have AAU ties what-so-ever. They are incredible coaches and talented players go there to play for them

 
Agreed. Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you want to play for Frank Martin?

Zion Williamson, right there for the taking. 1 and done type if there ever was one. He has to spend a year in college, you think he wants to spend it with a prick like Martin? It is not just the hard handed stuff, players can respond to that if they respect the man giving the tough love. Watch that last chance show on Netflix, now thats a coach kids are drawn too, he screams and yells with the best of them. We need a guy like that. A guy that everyone respects. 
If not wanting to play for a prick was part of Zion's decision, he wouldn't have gone to Duke.

Which coach from Last Chance U are you talking about? Buddy Stephens from EMCC, Jason Brown from Independence CC, or John Beam from Laney College? I could be ok with a guy like John Beam, but not those other 2 nut jobs.

 
If not wanting to play for a prick was part of Zion's decision, he wouldn't have gone to Duke.

Which coach from Last Chance U are you talking about? Buddy Stephens from EMCC, Jason Brown from Independence CC, or John Beam from Laney College? I could be ok with a guy like John Beam, but not those other 2 nut jobs.
the basketball one. I believe his name is Mosely

Coach K can be a prick but he's a guy players can respect. Martin is not

 
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the basketball one. I believe his name is Mosely

Coach K can be a prick but he's a guy players can respect. Martin is not
Last Chance U is all football. Maybe a different series you're thinking of?

I think both Coach K and Martin are respected. Just look at the support he's gotten from former players like Sin, PJ, Silva, etc.

 
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the basketball one. I believe his name is Mosely

Coach K can be a prick but he's a guy players respect. Martin is not
@Boca Bobby Just as an FYI, you're wrong about Martin being a guy players respect.  If you're talking about HS kids who have not played for Coach Martin, then perhaps you may have a point... thought I would argue otherwise on that point as well.  However, I can tell you that I've never met one of Martin's former players who do not deeply respect the man.  I'm personal friends with two from his days at K-State (one of whom Martin did not recruit, but who played under Martin after the transition from Woolridge to Huggins to Martin).  I've also spent a great deal of time with the guys who have come through USC (as I work at/for the University).  Even guys like one of my K-State friends, who were in Frank's doghouse while playing for him, think the WORLD of the guy.  Coach Martin will bend over backwards with ANY of his former players to help them out in life, should they call on him.  AND he checks in with his former players regularly, if they want/desire that kind of thing.

He's VERY well respected in the coaching community, at the HS level, and AAU scene nationally, and he is certainly well liked and respected in the collegiate scene.

You may personally think that the man is a bum (and hey... I'm cool with anyone's opinion of someone else.  We all have our reasons to like/dislike people), but those who have met him and spent countless hours around the guy disagree with your assessment that he is not someone who is respected.  I speak that truth from both sides - as someone who has spent time with players at USC AND as someone who has friendships with guys who played for him at K-State.

What I've just said may not be a popular opinion, but it's the truth.

Now, if you want to talk about Coach Martin's personality... then perhaps you've got an argument to be made.  I'll leave it at that.

 
the AAU posts on here too are misguided. Frank Martin is an AAU guy. His entire career is based on landing Michael Beasley at Kansas State, that was a heavy handed AAU effort. Martin has brought in assistants with deep AAU ties including Beasley's own AAU coach.

What is my point? Chasing AAU ball is not the way. Get a guy who can flat out coach young men. There is talent everywhere AAU and non-AAU, some players avoid that all together. Look at the guy at Virginia and the guy at Texas Tech. They dont have AAU ties what-so-ever. They are incredible coaches and talented players go there to play for them
Martin really had nothing to do with Beasley committing to K-State. He signed his NLI when Bob Huggins was Coach. He only chose K-State because Huggins hired Dalonte Hill, his AAU coach. I guess it didn't hurt that Martin kept Hill on staff though, but at that point Beasley's options were to play at K-State or withdraw from school and go play in the G-League/overseas until he's eligible for the draft. At that point in time, sticking it out for the year was the best option available.

 
@Boca Bobby Just as an FYI, you're wrong about Martin being a guy players respect.  If you're talking about HS kids who have not played for Coach Martin, then perhaps you may have a point... thought I would argue otherwise on that point as well.  However, I can tell you that I've never met one of Martin's former players who do not deeply respect the man.  I'm personal friends with two from his days at K-State (one of whom Martin did not recruit, but who played under Martin after the transition from Woolridge to Huggins to Martin).  I've also spent a great deal of time with the guys who have come through USC (as I work at/for the University).  Even guys like one of my K-State friends, who were in Frank's doghouse while playing for him, think the WORLD of the guy.  Coach Martin will bend over backwards with ANY of his former players to help them out in life, should they call on him.  AND he checks in with his former players regularly, if they want/desire that kind of thing.

He's VERY well respected in the coaching community, at the HS level, and AAU scene nationally, and he is certainly well liked and respected in the collegiate scene.

You may personally think that the man is a bum (and hey... I'm cool with anyone's opinion of someone else.  We all have our reasons to like/dislike people), but those who have met him and spent countless hours around the guy disagree with your assessment that he is not someone who is respected.  I speak that truth from both sides - as someone who has spent time with players at USC AND as someone who has friendships with guys who played for him at K-State.

What I've just said may not be a popular opinion, but it's the truth.

Now, if you want to talk about Coach Martin's personality... then perhaps you've got an argument to be made.  I'll leave it at that.
ok then why doesn't he win

 
Agreed. Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you want to play for Frank Martin?

Zion Williamson, right there for the taking. 1 and done type if there ever was one. He has to spend a year in college, you think he wants to spend it with a prick like Martin? It is not just the hard handed stuff, players can respond to that if they respect the man giving the tough love. Watch that last chance show on Netflix, now thats a coach kids are drawn too, he screams and yells with the best of them. We need a guy like that. A guy that everyone respects. 
I wouldn't go so far as calling Frank Martin a prick. I was only stating that he has an image issue in that he appears to be a prick. I hear he is quite personable and loving guy. I'm just theorizing that local recruits already have built up a wall before he has time to show that he is a good guy.

 
Frank's system is what got us to the Final Four.

Rick Barnes embraced Frank's defensive concepts and the Vols got much better, while our players continued to do what they wanted to in games and we went the other way in the same amount of time.

There is accountability higher than Frank for the downward slide.

Rationalize it however you want to, but that's what happened the past few years.

 
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I wouldn't go so far as calling Frank Martin a prick. I was only stating that he has an image issue in that he appears to be a prick. I hear he is quite personable and loving guy. I'm just theorizing that local recruits already have built up a wall before he has time to show that he is a good guy.
thats fair and my post was not meant to be personally calling him a prick, it was from the shoes of a potential HSer. like it or not he gives off that impression 

 
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ok then why doesn't he win
??? What does this mean?  Winning and respect?  Those are two separate issues (and, I might add, are not necessarily even intertwined).

Let's step away from Coach Martin for a minute and look at the guy that everyone around here loved to love instead of Frank Martin, when Frank Martin was hired - Gregg Marshall.  Gregg was well respected and won lots of games (at both Winthrop and Wichita State) until he wasn't respected (due to allegations of player abuse and racist statements).

Or take the opposite side of that equation... Anthony Grant (another name I see thrown around as a potential good Head Coach hire to replace Coach Martin at USC).  Coach Grant has a STELLAR reputation, both with players and with HS athletes he recruits.  His coaching record at Alabama in 6 seasons was just above the .500 mark (resulting in his being relieved of his job) and his record at Dayton thus far is only slightly better (about .667) with no NCAA appearances to date.

I'm not certain that I understand your thought process/arguments.  Help me out in understanding your point of view.  (I'm not saying that you're wrong about Coach Martin's winning % - he's at just shy of .600 with the Gamecocks - so I get being upset with his winning.  I simply don't understand saying he's not "respected").

 
??? What does this mean?  Winning and respect?  Those are two separate issues (and, I might add, are not necessarily even intertwined).

Let's step away from Coach Martin for a minute and look at the guy that everyone around here loved to love instead of Frank Martin, when Frank Martin was hired - Gregg Marshall.  Gregg was well respected and won lots of games (at both Winthrop and Wichita State) until he wasn't respected (due to allegations of player abuse and racist statements).

Or take the opposite side of that equation... Anthony Grant (another name I see thrown around as a potential good Head Coach hire to replace Coach Martin at USC).  Coach Grant has a STELLAR reputation, both with players and with HS athletes he recruits.  His coaching record at Alabama in 6 seasons was just above the .500 mark (resulting in his being relieved of his job) and his record at Dayton thus far is only slightly better (about .667) with no NCAA appearances to date.

I'm not certain that I understand your thought process/arguments.  Help me out in understanding your point of view.  (I'm not saying that you're wrong about Coach Martin's winning % - he's at just shy of .600 with the Gamecocks - so I get being upset with his winning.  I simply don't understand saying he's not "respected").
I was never a big fan of Marshall so those comments do not apply to me. Grant is alright but I'd rather have someone like James Jones at Yale or Mccasland at North Texas. Guys that coach a system that players buy into, not a guy that can hang his hat on 1 player or 1 season.

Martin is a recruiter not a Xs & Os guy. I think we can all agree on that. And his recruiting is failing him. Something is not working. Maybe its not a respect thing but it sure seems like it

 
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I was never a big fan of Marshall so those comments do not apply to me. Grant is alright but I'd rather have someone like James Jones at Yale or Mccasland at North Texas. Guys that coach a system that players buy into, not a guy that can hang his hat on 1 player or 1 season...

Martin is a recruiter not a Xs & Os guy. I think we can all agree on that. And his recruiting is failing him. Maybe its not a respect thing but it sure seems like it
IDK about this statement.  I'd say he's a pretty darned good X's and O's coach.  When his teams are playing defense "the Frank Martin way", if they're down 8 and have less than 2 minutes in the game, I give his teams a better than 50% chance of coming back for the win.  They've done it time and time again, but just not THIS year.

But o.k., I get your POV now.  You don't like his recruiting, and you see the stylistic/personality choices of Martin himself as annoying.  You prefer the types who are "system" guys.  

My only issue with that is that both of the examples you provide are pretty uneven or unproven in their return on investment.  Jones at Yale has duration and consistency at an Ivy League school, but he's got a .543 overall winning percentage and has only 2 NCAA appearances in 21 seasons as a HC.  McCasland is yet to show what kind of system/record he will provide, but his record in two different Mid-level conferences (not SEC or Power 5) has shown that he can get his teams to the CBA, and inconsistent conference play results.  Only THIS season did his team elevate to the NCAA tourney level.  (Which also happened with Frank Martin in his 5th season with USC).  Yes, McCasland had success at a DII school, but he's not proven that he's going to consistently get the recruits... the same problem that you claim to have with Frank Martin.

Again... I'm not here to argue with you.  Just wanted to understand your POV a bit better, and to dialogue with you a bit.  

As the folks in the forum know, I'm a Frank Martin guy...I like him, and I believe in his abilities.  I've been disappointed with this season, but think it's best that we keep him for one more season (2021-22) to see if he can right the ship.  If he cannot, I'm fine with him being dismissed at that time.  I, unlike others in this forum, think that it will be a PR disaster if we fire him now, and I think it will be difficult to find another HC who will be willing to step into Coach Martin's place and find success.  The names that everyone mentions right now are all young and unproven coaches with a few highly touted recruits and one or two good seasons to their resumes - but nothing to suggest that they can sustain that level of coaching with USC.

Ultimately, I don't get to decide these things, and I'll support whoever is coaching the Gamecocks Men's Basketball program.  I love the game and want to see the 'Cocks succeed at hoops.  I just hate to part with Frank Martin with a bad taste in the mouths of all sides involved (fans, players, coaches and administration) due to this atrocious COVID-bitten season.

 
IDK about this statement.  I'd say he's a pretty darned good X's and O's coach.  When his teams are playing defense "the Frank Martin way", if they're down 8 and have less than 2 minutes in the game, I give his teams a better than 50% chance of coming back for the win.  They've done it time and time again, but just not THIS year.

But o.k., I get your POV now.  You don't like his recruiting, and you see the stylistic/personality choices of Martin himself as annoying.  You prefer the types who are "system" guys.  

My only issue with that is that both of the examples you provide are pretty uneven or unproven in their return on investment.  Jones at Yale has duration and consistency at an Ivy League school, but he's got a .543 overall winning percentage and has only 2 NCAA appearances in 21 seasons as a HC.  McCasland is yet to show what kind of system/record he will provide, but his record in two different Mid-level conferences (not SEC or Power 5) has shown that he can get his teams to the CBA, and inconsistent conference play results.  Only THIS season did his team elevate to the NCAA tourney level.  (Which also happened with Frank Martin in his 5th season with USC).  Yes, McCasland had success at a DII school, but he's not proven that he's going to consistently get the recruits... the same problem that you claim to have with Frank Martin.

Again... I'm not here to argue with you.  Just wanted to understand your POV a bit better, and to dialogue with you a bit.  

As the folks in the forum know, I'm a Frank Martin guy...I like him, and I believe in his abilities.  I've been disappointed with this season, but think it's best that we keep him for one more season (2021-22) to see if he can right the ship.  If he cannot, I'm fine with him being dismissed at that time.  I, unlike others in this forum, think that it will be a PR disaster if we fire him now, and I think it will be difficult to find another HC who will be willing to step into Coach Martin's place and find success.  The names that everyone mentions right now are all young and unproven coaches with a few highly touted recruits and one or two good seasons to their resumes - but nothing to suggest that they can sustain that level of coaching with USC.

Ultimately, I don't get to decide these things, and I'll support whoever is coaching the Gamecocks Men's Basketball program.  I love the game and want to see the 'Cocks succeed at hoops.  I just hate to part with Frank Martin with a bad taste in the mouths of all sides involved (fans, players, coaches and administration) due to this atrocious COVID-bitten season.
It is fine sir, disagreements are good.

Covid cannot be an excuse for Martin. 323 Div I teams all dealt with the virus, some better than others, most all of them better than us. Duke quit on the OOC and quit all together later so maybe that's someone we did better than in that regard.

I think only playing mostly conference games exposed Martin a little more. A full schedule, featuring cupcake after cupcake in the out of conference and this is just another 16-15 type season for Frank Martin. 

 
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Maybe,

Frank and USC part ways or

1. Frank stays for 2 years

2. Frank stays for 1 year

3. During the 2 years he gets offers to leave and goes or stays

4. During the 1 year stay he gets offers and leaves

or...............

 
IDK about this statement.  I'd say he's a pretty darned good X's and O's coach.  When his teams are playing defense "the Frank Martin way", if they're down 8 and have less than 2 minutes in the game, I give his teams a better than 50% chance of coming back for the win.  They've done it time and time again, but just not THIS year.

But o.k., I get your POV now.  You don't like his recruiting, and you see the stylistic/personality choices of Martin himself as annoying.  You prefer the types who are "system" guys.  

My only issue with that is that both of the examples you provide are pretty uneven or unproven in their return on investment.  Jones at Yale has duration and consistency at an Ivy League school, but he's got a .543 overall winning percentage and has only 2 NCAA appearances in 21 seasons as a HC.  McCasland is yet to show what kind of system/record he will provide, but his record in two different Mid-level conferences (not SEC or Power 5) has shown that he can get his teams to the CBA, and inconsistent conference play results.  Only THIS season did his team elevate to the NCAA tourney level.  (Which also happened with Frank Martin in his 5th season with USC).  Yes, McCasland had success at a DII school, but he's not proven that he's going to consistently get the recruits... the same problem that you claim to have with Frank Martin.

Again... I'm not here to argue with you.  Just wanted to understand your POV a bit better, and to dialogue with you a bit.  

As the folks in the forum know, I'm a Frank Martin guy...I like him, and I believe in his abilities.  I've been disappointed with this season, but think it's best that we keep him for one more season (2021-22) to see if he can right the ship.  If he cannot, I'm fine with him being dismissed at that time.  I, unlike others in this forum, think that it will be a PR disaster if we fire him now, and I think it will be difficult to find another HC who will be willing to step into Coach Martin's place and find success.  The names that everyone mentions right now are all young and unproven coaches with a few highly touted recruits and one or two good seasons to their resumes - but nothing to suggest that they can sustain that level of coaching with USC.

Ultimately, I don't get to decide these things, and I'll support whoever is coaching the Gamecocks Men's Basketball program.  I love the game and want to see the 'Cocks succeed at hoops.  I just hate to part with Frank Martin with a bad taste in the mouths of all sides involved (fans, players, coaches and administration) due to this atrocious COVID-bitten season.
I think we were all upset during the season with all of the losses, but once you take a few days to think about stuff it just makes sense to hit the reset button and give him another season to compete on even ground.

Everyone will be cleared to get their Covid shots by May 1 and things will start loosening up probably faster than we think.

Hopefully the attendance limitations are loosened up if not gone entirely by November.  Most of the regular CLA home crowd has bought into the team's tenacity until the bitter end and are somewhat dumbfounded by the blow-outs this season after watching the prize fights of previous seasons.

Matt Figger said the team got its inner fire from Frank, not him, after he coached the team to wins during Frank's famous suspension in 2014.  Frank will do okay if he gets his inner fire back if we decide to keep him.

 
Maybe,

Frank and USC part ways or

1. Frank stays for 2 years

2. Frank stays for 1 year

3. During the 2 years he gets offers to leave and goes or stays

4. During the 1 year stay he gets offers and leaves

or...............
That’s the best crystal ball I’ve seen in quite some time.  A veritable Nostradamus we’ve got here in this forum! 🤣🤣🤣

(I truly did enjoy this post, despite my awful attempts at humor in response.  Thanks for adding a little LOL in my household).

 
Maybe,

Frank and USC part ways or

1. Frank stays for 2 years

2. Frank stays for 1 year

3. During the 2 years he gets offers to leave and goes or stays

4. During the 1 year stay he gets offers and leaves

or...............
Lol.  This reminded me of a sign that hangs at my barbershop. 

71qj1dPvp9L._AC_SL1500_.jpg


 
I like Boynton and agree with offering (if/when there is an opening) but I just do not think it will happen. Mike is not a local - he is from Brooklyn - so I do not see him leaving a good situation for a worse one, just because he played here.

He is going to lose some guys at OSU - Cunningham might he the #1 draft pick, and Likekile could be gone as well. But after their unexpected success this year, he should be able to attract more prospects and his job security is through the roof.

But I am fine with hiring BJ and bringing in Alex English as a Special Assistant for a couple of years. Do you think that we would have missed on Devontae Shuler (Irmo, BJ's HS) or Tevin Mack (Dreher, Alex's HS) with those guys coaching?


Not sure of all the issues with these in-state recruits. I certainly think that the staff has missed out on doing their due diligence with some of them.

Morant was one example: he was under the radar for most all Div-I programs, and all P5 programs, until late in the process when he exploded in summer league tournaments. It's true that we jumped on his late, as most all major programs did, but we did jump on him and our offer was sincere if late. Murray State recognized his talent a bit earlier than us and they made a strong pitch for him and it seemed to have worked - if Ja really wanted to play for a P5 and really liked USC, he was given the opportunity to come play for us, but he liked what Murray State offered him and they clicked for him, so he chose them.

Now, some could make the argument that if our staff were to do their job, they should AT LEAST recognize the "hidden gems" in our own backyard before out-of-state programs do, and have themselves at the family table while those others are still out on the front porch. No one would be able to argue against that much.

As far as Williamson, it seems like he or his family was paid money to go to Duke, and we aren't Duke and we don't pay money to prospects or their families (post-Evans, and apparently even HE didn't do that much while at USC even though he was expected to by "some"). If that's what it takes to lure some blue-chip talent to USC then I'll be glad they go elsewhere - we don't do so well as others do when NCAA rules are broken, so its just best to steer clear of all that nonsense.

Shuler has his own story: I guess the answer to your question in your final paragraph could be, "would we have missed on Murphy Holloway with those guys coaching?"

Holloway was the SC Mr. Basketball in 2008. But two things stood in the way of him ever donning the Gamecock jersey: one, his grades weren't great, and he wouldn't have gotten past our admissions. Second, his senior year in high school was Dave Odom's final year at USC, and the cloud over his chances of remaining our head coach was quite substantial. Darrin Horn replaced him, and the transition of staffs didn't help USC's cause. Mississippi's own admissions for most athletics were always a good bit below ours, and Holloway chose Ole Miss.

Now, what does Holloway have to do with Shuler? Everything just about. Both are basketball stars out of Irmo, SC. And Shuler grew up idolizing Holloway and following the Rebels MBB program while Holloway played there. Holloway briefly transferred to USC in the middle of his college career to be closer to his newborn baby daughter, but loved Ole Miss. Then things changed regarding that personal matter, and Holloway transferred back to Ole Miss after one redshirt year at USC where he paid his own way.

So, during Shuler's own recruitment, Holloway was a constant presence and "guidance counselor" of Devontae's during the process. He was Ole Miss's own inside agent, and it turned out successful for them in gaining Shuler's commitment.

I have heard and read whispers of "other" local guides in the Columbia and SC regions - whether they are church priests or AAU coaches or other persons of prominent positions, that constantly advise the local stars to seek college opportunities outside of the state. Perhaps there are several of these who are more for certain ACC programs in the state above ours, than they are for our own state. USC certainly does NOT have a strong support base within our own state for prep talent, for BOTH FB or MBB.

Perhaps this dates all the way back to McGuire's days - when he and his staff were focusing on NY talent, the local prep communities were looking elsewhere to send our own assets. But it is a cancer for both FB and MBB that is deeper and more frustrating for the MBB program, considering how much legitimate star MBB talent our state produces every five years. I don't think any of the staffs we've had for decades running the program, have figured out how to improve our standing here. I know our AD administration has never figured it out....

 
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